Changing Hard drives

[casey]

I'm finally going to venture into the SATA hard drives but thought I'd ask before I proceed. I presently have two 120 gig hard drives in the machine running Win XP Home with all the updates installed. Now what I'm going to do is change the one hard drive from ATA to a SATA 160 gig seagate. I want to use it as the main hard drive running the Operating system. I have never fooled with Sata so I don't know anything about it and the drive is being delivered either tomorrow or Tues. That will be my first close look at a SATA drive. My plan would be to make an Acronis image this afternoon and when I get the new drive install it and replace the operating system using Acronis.
I'm hoping I won't have any problems with XP (changing the hard drive) and I'll leave the ATA secondary hard drive as it is with the Acronis Image on it. Does this sound like it will work or what are the flaws in my plan?

[dbarrow]

You should be fine. You will have to change the boot device in BIOS and select the SATA drive the OS is on.

[casey]

I just looked in the bios and under Boot I only have the two IDE drives listed with the floppy and cdrom. I did enable the SATA Bootrom thinking that will change the listings. Will the drive show up after it is attached? Thanks

[mylanta]

It should Larry. The one thing I have always wondered about is will restoring the image file to a sata drive, retore the mbr as well. Ghost has a plce to check that in settings and I know it will, but I have had problems with Acronis doing that. Check out all the settings to be certain if there is an option to check to transfer the mbr, you do it as the one big problem with sata drives has always been needing driver to find the OS on a new install, a driver you set in by pushing F6 when indicated and installing from a floppy.

[Dan18960]

Larry,

What I would do since this is your "first" adventure into SATA is do an exercise installation.

Download ALL the newest drivers for your motherboard, be sure to grab the SATA driver and move it to a floppy, disconnect your IDE drives, and do a "virgin" installation of XP to see what it acts like on the new drive.

Also see if you can install XP without the SATA drivers. On my Intel motherboards I have never had to use the SATA drivers to install XP - but that is not the experience of everyone, Rich has had a few where the drivers were required. You will know right away since XP will come back after loading the RAM drive with files that it can't find a drive in the system.

This way IF Acronis doesn't transfer the mbr - you will already have one established on the drive from the previous installation.

[mylanta]

That's a good idea because it is the easiest way to establish an mbr on the drive, and then write over it with the image file from ide.
Actually every Intel board I used (but then I stopped at 875 Dan) and every Amd compatible that was not Nvidia nforce 4 chipset needed the driver load. The A8V board you have was the worst, as the driver is on the Asus cd, but doesn't "read" you have to run the cd to be asked if you want to make the floppy. But wouldn't you already be in Windows to do that and who would run that mobo cd on another system if they didn't know that?

[casey]

Thanks guys I really appreciate it. Now my next question is **** Is this really worth all this trouble?**** I guess I really want to do this more for the experience then for the advantage of using SATA drives...

[dbarrow]

SATA is faster. You already have the bus.

#1. Install the SATA driver to XP before you make your image.
#2. You may have to connect the drives before the SATA option enables in BIOS
#3. Fire it up with the new drives and make sure they are recognized in BIOS
#4. Format the drives

Before you can boot from the new drive, it needs an MBR and the boot files.
You can copy them over from the current OS drive.
You will have to edit the boot.ini. Look that up in the MSKB
to see how to edit it.

[boot loader]
timeout=30
default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(1)partition(2)\WINDOW S
[operating systems]
multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(1)partition(2)\WINDOWS="Microsoft Windows XP Professional" /fastdetect /NoExecute=OptIn

second option,
restore your image to the new drive.
Disconnect the IDE
Set BIOS to boot from the SATA
Boot from XP install cd, load the driver with f6
Enter Repair Console (first "R")
Logon, it should see the XP install on the SATA
Type, fixmbr enter, fixboot enter
It should rebuild an MBR and Boot for the SATA
Boot from it.

[mylanta]

Reluctantly I admit I have yet to see fixboot or fixmbr do anything Doug.
And Larry, yes you need to get into sata drives. For one thing sooner or later ide drives will go away and get real expensive as no new machines have been built with them for several years now. Also what DB didn't mention is they are much quieter and last a lot longer than ide drives.
Sata2 drives claim 300 meg vs 150 on sata drives, and while it isn't so, some day it will be. Just remember all that compares to 100 ata. Oh and please don't come back with 133, as the number isn't real in tests.

[casey]

Okay guys, maybe I was a little to fast but the drive came early this morning. It had everything I needed to install it in an upgrade kit. I removed the two IDE drives and installed the Sata drive. I then thought I would use the seagate installation disk to format the drive. The drive is recognized in the Sata section of the computer but not in the boot section. The installation disk will ask first the language (english) then after installing some files it gets to a command line. (seagate boot cd) It does give me chices Like A= boot files (cd) A: B=Floppy drive if attached:C=Ram drive: X=cd-rom drive. but below that it says please remove your cd and press ctr.-alt-del to reboot.
When I reboot it just tells me to insert boot device. I tried installing XP and when it asked for the sata drivers I inserted the disk and it gave me choices of the XP Promise driver, which I picked but after that it just said I didn't have a hard drive installed. I know I'm missing something but have no idea of what it is. I thought the disk would format the drive but it didn't do anything. It looks like the seagate disk might have put files on the drive but since the computer can't see them they are no help. I guess I'll have to read the directions.

[mylanta]

Okay guys, maybe I was a little to fast but the drive came early this morning. It had everything I needed to install it in an upgrade kit. I removed the two IDE drives and installed the Sata drive. I then thought I would use the seagate installation disk to format the drive. The drive is recognized in the Sata section of the computer but not in the boot section. The installation disk will ask first the language (english) then after installing some files it gets to a command line. (seagate boot cd) It does give me chices Like A= boot files (cd) A: B=Floppy drive if attached:C=Ram drive: X=cd-rom drive. but below that it says please remove your cd and press ctr.-alt-del to reboot.
When I reboot it just tells me to insert boot device. I tried installing XP and when it asked for the sata drivers I inserted the disk and it gave me choices of the XP Promise driver, which I picked but after that it just said I didn't have a hard drive installed. I know I'm missing something but have no idea of what it is. I thought the disk would format the drive but it didn't do anything. It looks like the seagate disk might have put files on the drive but since the computer can't see them they are no help. I guess I'll have to read the directions.


Larry,
The Promise driver is probably wrong. Most of the Amd problem drivers are Via...check mobo site for correct sata driver. If it's the A8V or other Asus it is probably on the driver cd...or downloadable.

[dbarrow]

Yes, you need to install the SATA driver from the MOBO install cd or FLOPPY that came with it. XP needs a floppy with the SATA driver to f6 when starting up the XP install cd or it can't see the drives.
Newer versions of XP, with SP2 already on it, may contain the correct driver. The old original version does not and it has to be put in with f6.

[casey]

I'll check guys but I got the drivers on the disk from Asus web site. But now I'm not certain that XP is using the disk.
Anyway I'll check on the drivers.

What I am understanding then is to go ahead and install windows and the sata drivers which will allow me to make it my boot drive?

[dbarrow]

As the XP disk is loading, it asks Press f6 to install drivers.
Press f6 and it will ignore you for a few more minutes. I generally tap f6 a couple time as I have had it skip over the first tap.
Finally, the screen comes up to choose a driver.
By default, it selects one contained on the cd.
Look at the BOTTOM border for the option to install from FLOPPY, think it's f3.
Always choose the one from the floppy as it is newer than what is on the cd.
Select that and proceed.
The screen comes back up again, to add another driver, press enter to continue.

[casey]

I'm at a loss for what to do. I checked and it seems that the controller is Promise 378 and the driver from the disks I've been making seems to install but it still stops and says it can't find the hard drive. At the screen where you install the driver the only choices you have are S for special drivers (which I pushed) enter to continue or F3 for exit. Either I have the wrong driver, I thought maybe I'm trying the 64 bit driver but cannot find any others. Another thing I thought I'd better check is I have four SATA connections on the motherboard. Two are Raid SATA connections and two are SATA A and SATA B. I have the drive connected to SATA A and it shows up in the SATA Bios as Serial_ch0 Master 149.05 which seems that would be right. Still doesn't help me understand what I'm doing wrong.. I know it will be something stupid but it will drive me crazy.

[casey]

Well, I finally found a driver that worked. Rich you were right as the Via Sata driver worked right away. So right now I'm installing XP and now to figure how to get the IDE drive in as a secondary so I can use Acronis. Thanks guys for helping me get this far..I'll be formatting floppies for quite some time tonight as I have a pile of them trying to find a driver that worked.

[mylanta]

Larry,
I saw that problem before with Asus. The ones downloaded form the site were wrong, the right one is on cd, but why on earth you have to install it to another system to make floppy is beyond me...that is really stupid!

[Dan18960]

First let me express some aaaaaaaaaaggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Larry,

NEVER NEVER NEVER use the configuration disks that come with a hard drive! It will create a partition that comes from H3LL!

Those disks were needed in the OLD days when the BIOS could only see 10 or so gb and needed to have the drive partitioned with compatible heads, sectors, and cylinders to the motherboard or added in controller and to run diagnostics WHICH do not have to be loaded or formatted on the drive.

One of the biggest issues I have seen is that the hard drive becomes married to the motherboard and when the drive is migrated to another motherboard or system, the data / operating system is unreadable.

Now for the "possibility" of your ide drives. On my 865 Intel, I can connect both ide and sata drives and not have any problems. In fact, I use the system to clean client's computer drives all the time.

What I have done is I use an IDE drive to store my image on and then disconnect it so it is isolated from any "influences" LOL.

[casey]

Well like I said Dan, I have never worked with a SATA drive before. I eventually worked everything out and it's all working the way I want it to with the Sata running XP and the IDE as a second drive for Image files.

I wonder Dan if you would like to give me an estimate of how many drives are formatted by the disks that come with the drive.

[Dan18960]

Easy - NONE OF MINE!:D

When floppies were needed for just about everything data storage related - I was kept with a steady supply by reformatting the ones that came with the drives.

Like I said though - the diagnostics on the cd for the hard drive does come in handy when you are having issues.

And Larry - don't feel slighted. It was life experiences that led to the discovery that the included software with hard drives caused problems, not some grand revelation.

So how are you enjoying the SATA experience? Actually, you probably don't notice any difference. Computer boots, applications run, and you now have extra storage.:cool:

[mylanta]

Larry,
I agree with Dan. One time I used MaxBlast to format a drive years ago and that was enough for me....I do the same thing Dan does, add to my "floppy arsenal".

[casey]

Let's just say everone has different life experiences and leave it at that.

***Now for the "possibility" of your ide drives. On my 865 Intel, I can connect both ide and sata drives and not have any problems. In fact, I use the system to clean client's computer drives all the time.***

I'd say it was my own dumb fault for having to struggle with the Sata drive not anything to do with AMD or Asus. If I would have checked closer and seen I had the wrong drivers it wouldn't have taken any more time then normal to install. The IDE drive went in easily after I tried a few different ways and like I said it was a learning experience.

Both you and Rich lost me on the formatting the floppys.
I use to buy them at auction by the 100's and then reformat them for my own use..

[Dan18960]

Let's just say everone has different life experiences and leave it at that.

Both you and Rich lost me on the formatting the floppys.
I use to buy them at auction by the 100's and then reformat them for my own use..

True about the life experiences - but when you find other techs sighing the same lament - you kinda get the impression your on the right path. As you can see both Rich and I had similar experiences using the enclosed hard drive drivers. Remember in my original post that we use to HAVE TO USE those drivers because of motherboard BIOS restrictions. It was AFTER those restrictions were removed that the drivers proved to be a hinderance not a blessing.

As for the floppy line - the drivers use to come on Floppies! Since we didn't use the drivers - we formatted the floppies. After all, FREE was the price we paid for those floppies since they were included with EVERY hard drive you got.

Larry, not making a statement here about your using or not using the drivers, ONLY what has become the consense of the tech area. Sometimes they work and sometimes they rear their ugly head and trash "you". But since it is not necessary to use them today - why gamble on the house?

[mylanta]

"Both you and Rich lost me on the formatting the floppys.
I use to buy them at auction by the 100's and then reformat them for my own use"

Our price is better and we don't often take you out for price, Larry!

[mylanta]

True about the life experiences - but when you find other techs sighing the same lament - you kinda get the impression your on the right path. As you can see both Rich and I had similar experiences using the enclosed hard drive drivers. Remember in my original post that we use to HAVE TO USE those drivers because of motherboard BIOS restrictions. It was AFTER those restrictions were removed that the drivers proved to be a hinderance not a blessing.

As for the floppy line - the drivers use to come on Floppies! Since we didn't use the drivers - we formatted the floppies. After all, FREE was the price we paid for those floppies since they were included with EVERY hard drive you got.

Larry, not making a statement here about your using or not using the drivers, ONLY what has become the consense of the tech area. Sometimes they work and sometimes they rear their ugly head and trash "you". But since it is not necessary to use them today - why gamble on the house?


Actually it goes beyond that anyway. If XP CD will partition and format, even if you already have using third party software, what is the possible advantage of the free software that comes with the drives anyway?
XP seems to reject anyone elses format anyway, though you could override that if you want to.

[dbarrow]

I guess they will address this in Vista.
XP is about the ONLY app in the world anymore that requires a floppy for anything.
But, remember it is starting to age! At the time of the initial release, floppies were still common.
For the next year or so after the release, there was much change in hardware with SATA drives and the like and the drivers were NOT included in XP so you have no choice but to add them via the floppy.

You used to get a floppy with the mobo install cd with the correct drivers. Anymore, they have a file to MAKE a floppy on the cd.

Now, you get machines that don't even have a floppy and if stuck in this situation, you have to buy and install one!

[jcampi]

I've always wondered about using True Image if I replaced my hard drive. I have a full backup image of my current hard drive. If I were to replace the current hard drive with a new one I'm assumming I'd format the new hard drive. Then, could I merely insert the True Image bootable CD and install the True Image backup file? I'm assumming this would include the OS, drivers and all of my software and folders. Ideally, I wouldn't even know the hard drive was changed other than the larger capacity.

[mylanta]

Not necessary John to format or anything. Just attach new drive and restore image file from rescue cd.

[jcampi]

Not even necessary to format the new hard drive??? It couldn't get easier! I am a loyal user of True Image. No more reformatting and no more lost files and wasted hours.

[mylanta]

Not even necessary to format the new hard drive??? It couldn't get easier! I am a loyal user of True Image. No more reformatting and no more lost files and wasted hours.

Right think about what you are doing. An image file is formatted, and what you are doing is moving it to a new home...so it carries all of itself to it.

[tonyd]

I've had problems moving True Image images to drives where the size was different than the original and the drive was the boot drive. For instance, moving an image of a 10 G drive to a 40 G drive. The machine wouldn't boot. I think the solution was to fix the mbr using Recovery Console.
-td

[mylanta]

The newest version has an option to move the mbr as well, something that has been long missing and you do it as a second partition move.

[dale@fcg]

Is that option in v.9 to move the mbr an obvious one or is it something that is user instigated by knowledge of its existence?

[mylanta]

Is that option in v.9 to move the mbr an obvious one or is it something that is user instigated by knowledge of its existence?

No it is obvious. When you select the image file you want to restore, you will notice that there will be the drive you chose and right under it the mbr as an option also and you choose one, then when it asks you if you want to do another you go back and choose the mbr as well.