New PC

[Pi rules]

For some reason, my shared list isn't under the public lists (Newegg), so I'll have to post the individual links:
ASPIRE X-Plorer ATXB8KLW-BL Black/Blue Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16811144104)
ECS C19-A SLI (1.0A) Socket T (LGA 775) NVIDIA nForce4 SLI XE ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16813135225)
SAPPHIRE 100143L Radeon X1300PRO 256MB GDDR2 PCI Express x16 Video Card - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16814102641)
KWORLD VS-LTV7131R(RF W/FM) PCI Interface TV Tuner Card - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16815100129)
Intel Pentium D 930 Presler 800MHz FSB LGA 775 Dual Core Processor Model BX80553930 - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16819116238)
CORSAIR ValueSelect 1GB (2 x 512MB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 533 (PC2 4200) Unbuffered Dual Channel Kit System Memory Model VS1GBKIT533D2 - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16820145526)
Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD3200KS 320GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16822136003)
Microsoft Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005 w/Update Rollup Release 2 OEM 1 Pack - OEM (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16832102357)
Arctic Silver 5 Thermal Compound - OEM (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16835100007)Any problems, comments, or suggestions? I won't be getting the HDD (2 spare PATAs) or XP Media Center (have an unused XP Home to use, but would prefer XP Media Center to use eventually).

PS: I have a 500 watt psu to use; I know the case doesn't come with one.

[casey]

Not crazy about ECS motherboards. You can do better..

[photolady]

Stay away from ECS motherboards. These are on the lowest of the lowest list for motherboards. Capacitors on the board tend to blow quite easily. If you want a board to last without problems in the near future, find another brand. Oh and PCChips is owned by ECS so they aren't good either. Below is a better one.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813128316

I use Gigabyte, some disagree but I've never had one go out and my first computer I had in win98 was still going strong 5 years after I got it. I sold this computer in 2003.

[Pi rules]

The Gigabye seems OK, but:
This product does not support Win9X/ME
On their site (here (http://www.giga-byte.com/Support/Motherboard/CPUSupport_List.aspx?ClassValue=Motherboard&ProductID=1949&ProductName=GA-8N-SLI)), it says that it doesn't support the Pentium D 930. :(

Still, I guess I would rather have an ASUS or Gigabyte motherboard.

[Pi rules]

I found this Gigabyte motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813128317) that supports the D 930, but it's DDR2 standard is only 533 and no SATA RAID... Other than that, looks great. 3 PCI, 2 PCIx1, 1 PCIx16, etc.

Edit: Just found out that it only supports 2 GB of RAM, which might hurt later for Vista. Still, it's the best I've seen in my price range (preferrably under $100) and specs (I would like 4xDDR2 slots, SATA 3.0GB/s, 2+ ATA, plus support for the 930).

[Pi rules]

I'm starting to look at other cases now, as well. How about this one (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811147001)? My current case is a Rosewill, and they seem to be well-constructed. The airflow looks better in this case as well.

[Pi rules]

Here's the current listing of what I'm going to get initially:
CPU: Intel Pentium D 930 (http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=80851)
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-8I945PL-G (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16813128317)
Memory: Corsair ValueSelect 1 GB DDR 533 (http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=80098-35)
Case: Rosewill TU-155 Black (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16811147001) edit: I think this one (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811144001) looks better (except for the alien fan grills)
Graphics Card: Saphire 100143L Radeon X1300Pro (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16814102641)

Later I'll get a new SATA2 HDD and XP Media Center probably.

[mylanta]

PI Much better board...they are so right ECS is junk and so is PC Chips.
Looks like a nice setup...

[PeteF]

... so right ECS is junk and so is PC Chips.


I have a PC Chips mobo in one of my systems here and I know it radiates
RF more than any other PC I've had here. I can see the interference on
my TV that is here in the same room.

I'm not disputing that PC Chips is junk, but other than my RF problem
mine runs ok. What other aspects of this mobo would you say are junk?
What should I be aware of?

BTW: My preference for mobos has always been Asus.
I picked up this PC Chips PC for dirt cheap and it's been running
a few years with no problems so I consider myself lucky.

---pete---

[mylanta]

Pete,
The only two I actually had were defective. I mean changing a psu should not blow a mobo. Leaking capacitors in a month, ide controllers shot out of the box the list of client problems is endless. I mean I always thought eMachines were crap until I got some ECS pc's in shop. Look you get what you pay for. Some people will spend $300 on gpu, $500 on cpu and $40 on mobo. That's like putting in a paper mache pacemaker in your body, or a Toro engine in a car to me. The motherboard is the heart of the whole system. As good as Asus has always been, they are really struggling right now and I think it is the Sli architecture personally, because their boards without it are OK. Gigabyte has been "dog sick" for a few years, seem to be coming out of it and Msi may be staging a comeback but with all the new technology, mobo makers are having a tough time and this is not the time to be screwing with $40-50 mobos.

[PeteF]

Pete,
The only two I actually had were defective. I mean changing a psu should not blow a mobo. Leaking capacitors in a month, ide controllers shot out of the box the list of client problems is endless............................
...........As good as Asus has always been, they are really struggling right now and I think it is the Sli architecture personally, because their boards without it are OK.


OK then, I think you are saying that ECS & PC Chips mobos have more of
a quallity control problem as opposed to a design problem. And.. Asus mobos
are still ok except for a design problem with the SLI type boards.
Thanks, for the info.

---pete---

[dbarrow]

Asus has some of the most reliable boards with many features. Their Tech Support is actually good and you can talk to a human.
http://www.abxzone.com/
is an Asus oriented forum where you find a lot of help and experienced users for your Asus mobo.

Abit, struggling on the comback trail, has quality in their higher end boards. I am happy with my AA8XE in this machine from a year ago. They have their own tech support forums with a lot of user response.
While in the middle of -reorganization, they are prone to dropping models quick.

Gigabyte, as Rich said, has been having all too many problems.

Intel is actually building full feature enthusiast mobos these days.

One of the most important factors I consider, parts being parts and most mobos being very close feature wise, is the ability to find experienced users who have found and fixed the problems with it. This is where a good user forum is invaluable. If you encounter a problem, will you be on the phone all day or can you quickly look up and find the answer you need on a forum with a whole bunch of users?

[mylanta]

Right Pete and please bear in mind that is strictly my guess...the Nvidia nforce4 chipset is being blamed for a lot of things I happen to think Sli has caused, because it was released to quickly and I find it odd that the few boards that do not employ that for the most part seem OK.
Doug,
Asus has a major problem on the Amd side where A8N-Sli which is their premium board is being rma'd daily in numbers beyond belief. What I saw with the one I briefly had for a few days, blew my mind. And my relief came in going to Biostar as I had had 3 bad Asus boards in a row.

[dbarrow]

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=472&num=1
ECS C19-A SLI brand new review

...Looking over the results, we were absolutely impressed by this latest ECS Elitegroup creation. Not only did the C19-A SLI remain competitive throughout nearly all of the benchmarks, but the motherboard it was challenged against costs over twice its price and was powered by the Intel 955X + ICH7R combination. With this being our first examination of the NVIDIA C19XE + MCP51, we were certainly pleased with its Linux compatibility and performance -- especially after the tarnished experience with the nForce 410. Props do go out to ECS for having a motherboard that is largely compatible with present day Linux, and especially with the implementation of the IT8712F ASIC and its compatibility with LM_Sensors. ...

[photolady]

Must be the user; :D Gigabyte has been "dog sick" for a few years because I've used these boards for 8 years and never had a problem with them.

[jcampi]

If you don't mind me asking - what would a system like this cost if you purchased the components and built it yourself?

[mylanta]

If you don't mind me asking - what would a system like this cost if you purchased the components and built it yourself?

John,
Use the url's as they have prices....

[Pi rules]

I am buying each component and building. It would cost much more to buy an actual PC with these specs.

Any thoughts on the cases? I think that this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811144026) Aspire looks better and I like the removable mobo tray, the temp. sensor and the space. I don't see many differences between the X-Dreamer 1 & X-Dreamer 2, but the 2nd has many more votes & reviews; it costs more, but has cheaper shipping.

[dbarrow]

They don't list the PSU.
As we mentioned previously, not all PSU are the same or good even if it has the wattage you require.
I would suspect that at the price of this case, it's one very cheap PSU.
Depending on what you are putting in it, especially vid card, you may want to consider buying a good quality PSU and keeping that one as a spare.

[Pi rules]

I already have an Aspire 500 watt PSU that seems fine. I will keep the case one as a spare, like you said just in case I have some troubles with it.

[Pi rules]

Sorry for posting again, but I have another question:

Should I get 1 GB stick, or 2x512? The Corsair 2x512 is slightly more, but then if one stick goes bad, at least I'll have the other. However, the 1 GB leaves more room (3 slots) for expansion.

[dbarrow]

Depends what you are going to do with it...
Some of the newer 2x1g matched sets are reasonable right now.
Problem being, buy a matched pair of X today and go to add same in six months and it is gone!
If you want a 2g machine ... buy 2g now.

[Pi rules]

I'm doing some amateur video & photo editing, some gaming (mostly my brothers playing Madden & NBA Live, I get bored of games), transferring VHS to DVD (with the card I'll get later), homework, programming, internet browsing, etc. $153 is a good price for 2 GB (Corsair 2x1GB @ zipzoomfly), but I'm trying to keep the price down, and I should be OK with 1 GB for video editing with that CPU and large HDDs. I have to save up for college and probably a notebook computer for college as well.

[photolady]

For what you're planning on doing, you will be fine with 1gb memory, then can upgrade later if you want. I also do photos and videos, transferring vhs to dvd and I have 1gb in my system.

On that power supply, is it in system that's running now? Have you tested the +5v? I have a rather newish Enlight in mine and was getting BSOD's, come to find out that 450w Enlight's +5v was flucuating from 5v to 2.85. I'm changing this one tomorrow. So you might want to test your Aspire, that is not a good one to have anyway. Antec, Enermax, Thermaltake, Fortron, and Enlight are the top power supplies. With the first four being the best.

[Pi rules]

For 1 GB, should I get 2x512 in dual channel, or just 1 GB stick? I would test the power supply (yes, in my current PC), but I don't have any way of doing it. I don't think my current motherboard has the right sensor.

[mylanta]

yes the advantage of dual channel is worth it do the 2- 512 sticks.

[Pi rules]

I just ordered it today.

Here are the final links to what I got:
Case: Aspire X-Dreamer II black ATX case (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16811144026)
Memory: Corsair ValueSelect 1 GB Kit (2x512MB) dual channel DDR2 533 (http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=85016-33)
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-8I945PL-G 4xDDR2 533, 4xSATA II, PCIx16, 2 PCIx1, 3 PCI, gigabit LAN, etc. (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16813128317)
Processor: Intel Pentium D 930 3.0 GHz, 2x2MB L2, 800 FSB (http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=80851)
Video Card: Sapphire X1300PRO 600 MHz core, 800 MHz (effective) 128-bit GDDR2, 4 pipelines (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16814102641)
To finish, I'm using my old hard drives for now (WD 120 GB 8 MB cache, and WD 80 GB 8 MB cache) and an extra OEM copy of XP Home (may upgrade to XP Media Center, or wait until Vista).

Now, I get to wait and hope there are not any DOAs.

Just wondering, should I take pics and make a quick tutorial or review for the hardware review section?

[mylanta]

Looks like this will be a nice unit PI, and very well priced too.

[Pi rules]

Yes, it will beat my Celeron D 330 (2.66 GHz. with 256k L2). ;) I did get it stable @ 3.12 (about 17%), but only benchmarked it at 3.04. Your setup is good. It would whip mine in most benchmarks.
I like the price/performance, which was the best I could think of within my price range.

Thanks, everyone for the suggestions! :wave: I'll keep you updated.

[jcampi]

PI Rules, if you don't mind me asking - do you have a total for the cost of everything need to build the PC? I'm just curious what the total cost is compared to buying a PC. Thanks.

[Pi rules]

I'm not buying an entire PC, but what I am getting is about $550. Add in about $120 for a 320 GB HDD and $120 for the 19" LCD that Rich pointed out, and a DVD burner for about $35, speakers for $20, $30 for my power supply, only $10 for my wireless keyboard and mouse (on sale), plus $80 for OEM XP Home and the total is about:
$965 vs. quite a bit more for a retail PC. Probably well over $1000 ($1500 maybe?).

I like building PCs vs. buying because 1. it's cheaper and 2. you can customize whatever you want. The only problem is that you don't have technical support from a company. Who needs it, though? Just go to a forum like this and you get better support anyway.

[mylanta]

Plus what PI forgets to mention is labor to put the whole thing together, throw the switch and have absolutely nothing happen! Can't beat it!!!!

[dbarrow]

30 minutes to slap the parts together.
3 hours to figure out what you forgot to plug in.
3 days to figure out the hardware conflict.
3 weeks to figure out the random BSOD
But we did save a lot of money!

[mylanta]

Well see I always forget the power cord. It has become a tradition because I don't want any power to the board until I'm ready, so when I'm ready I always forget that I never plugged it in. Then after that I'll find the other reason it won't start up.

[PeteF]

$965 vs. quite a bit more for a retail PC. Probably well over $1000 ($1500 maybe?).

I like building PCs vs. buying because 1. it's cheaper and 2. you can customize whatever you want.


Maybe someone can enlighten me here. :)
In my computer business I don't sell PCs or do much in building PCs except
for my own use. I have never seen a big cost savings in building my own
PC because I typically buy good quality name brand components. Most times
it seems like I pay more to build my own as compared to purchasing a DELL
or HP PC with similar specs. However, I have not built my own in a few years
so maybe things have changed. The main advantage in building my own has
always been in quality control and customization. Plus I get all the
documentation and SW that goes with each component.

Can we now build our own for a cheaper price than DELL or HP and
still have good quality name brand components?

---pete---

[casey]

I'd say NO.. I don't think you can build one cheaper then Dell or HP but you can have better components.
The only way is to sit back and buy parts only when they are on sale and by the time you get all the parts you need they are obsolete.. You can start all over again.

PC Shopper has an article where you can build one for $500. Then they start adding better components and the price goes up...

[dbarrow]

You can't beat their volume parts prices, unless you plan on ordering a few truckloads.
Bear in mind, their low end and special offers are usually a means of clearing excess parts inventory when something new comes along and they are stuck with shelves full of old parts.

Now, if you start to custom spec the top of the line with what you want in it.... end cost will be about 50% more than if you build your own.

You can build a very cheap, very low end box with outdated scrounged parts from the computer shows but you get what you pay for.
If you want custom high end and top of the line stuff in your box, with outfits like Newegg and ZipZoom where margins are thin and profits are from volume, you will build that box for 2/3 to 1/2 what you could buy it for, if you could buy it with the parts you want.

The difficult choice is bundled software.
The Dell's and HP's can afford to throw in a gob of OEM software they get cheap with huge volume discounts.
Hardware is one thing, software another!

[mylanta]

You are all right except that the parts haven't been getting so obsolete these last few years. I mean I use Raptor 10000 rpm hard drives that are and will be faster than any sata2 drives...DDR2 is meaningless so the build I am doing will cost me the $650 I showed on eBay + a case, a cdrw a floppy drive and another hard drive which I already own from the existing unit. Go out and price a rig with 4800 Athlon dual core and you will see the chip alone is a Newegg $630 retail. I will build one of the fastest setups known to man for about $780 (I'll include what I paid for those parts) then add XP and I have a "virgin" copy on the pc I am replacing. Now go one step further. I will sell my 2900 Athlon Barton cpu, a gig of ram, 80 gb Deathstar, and Msi K7N2 Delta 2 mobo, and 9600 Ati 256 meg video card, all of which are about 3 months old for $299 with free freight and the net cost will be $481 for the upgrade, and I do it everytime I build a new setup! For that price from Dell I would get a 2400 POS or maybe a 3000+? I don't think so. Hardly comparable.
If you learn how to sell what you own, finance the new one for a minimum of 30 days out so that you have the time to sell the old, you are never out of pocket that much and you get the "jolt" of the new build. For $481 to go to a 4800 Athlon with 2 gig ram, from a 2900 Barton XP with a gig of ram, is a nice noticeable move up!

[photolady]

I was shocked that Larry thought that buying an HP or Dell was profitable....and it was considered top of the line.......Top of the line for what? Not in my book. I build systems in my shop, though priced a bit higher than Dell or HP (I would never own one of those btw), my prices are higher because I use guality components. However, the client gets the benefit of local support.

My next system for myself is going to cost me about $450 and that is for an AMD 64bit system, using quality parts.

[casey]

I'd say NO.. I don't think you can build one cheaper then Dell or HP but you can have better components.
The only way is to sit back and buy parts only when they are on sale and by the time you get all the parts you need they are obsolete.. You can start all over again.



I was shocked that Larry thought that buying an HP or Dell was profitable....and it was considered top of the line.......Top of the line for what?

I think you have me mixed up with someone else....

[Pi rules]

I just customized a Dell XPS 400 (cheapest one I saw with a quick look that offered the D 930): Pentium D 930, XP Media Center, 256 MB PCIx16 nVidia 6800 (worse than my video card), 1 GB dual channel (probably a cheap brand nobody heard of), 320 GB HD, DVD-RW, (floppy was $30!, but I didn't include a floppy in my price), 19" LCD, integrated motherboard sound, cheap speakers (integrated into LCD), a wired keyboard (mine is wireless), a wired optical mouse (mine is optical wireless). The price (with specials) : $1340 vs. under $1000 for my PC with superior specs.

Once the specs. get lower the cost difference gets lower, plus there are always specials. On "Black Friday" I saw a PC for $150 w/ 17" CRT. Sure, it had a Sempron, but there's no way you could build a comparable PC for that much.

[photolady]

Looking good Pi. ;)

I was going to come back and tell you what Rich already did but my computer was at work last night. I was still changing things out, psu and new harddrive. But the best reason to get two sticks of ram instead of one is, that if one goes bad, you still have one to boot your computer with and use your computer until you get a new stick. ;)

[photolady]

Sorry Larry. But please don't use red lettering I hate that color, reminds of my young years in grade school..........LOL

[casey]

Sorry, but I wanted to make sure you noted that what I wrote didn't have the meaning you were saying that it did..

Although in the last year I helped three people buy Dell computers that I couldn't have built for the price they paid. All three families are happy with their purchase...

Funny but Rich use to swear by Dell...

[mylanta]

Funny but Rich use to swear by Dell...


Yeah I did Larry and I owned a bunch of them too. But these new promo units the 2000 and 3000 series are real junk and when I was a buyer, Dell had no units with 2 pci slots, onboard video and sound, no parallel ports, Ps2 ports,no agp controller or serial ports etc...but the worst thing of all just happened where now they give you no software cd's and in fact you have to pay to get restore capability and that just goes way too far for me!

[Pi rules]

I have another question. I have two hard drives (both Western Digital, of course ;)); one 120 GB with an XP installation and Linux Swap partition, the other 80 GB has a roughly 55 GB NTFS partition, then 3 Linux partitions (SUSE 10, Fedora Core 5 & Ubuntu 5.10), along with a 5 GB FAT32 partition to share files between Linux & Windows.

So, eventually I'll probably get a new WD SATA 2 HDD with NCQ for Vista, but until then, I think I'll just delete all Linux & swap partitions, restore the default master boot record (in Recovery mode using XP CD), then merge the partitions (with Knoppix Live CD), then setup the 80 GB as master, install XP, and just copy whatever files/settings I need. Does this sound reasonable?

...reminds of my young years in grade school
Not all teachers use red now. I'm just scared of how red my paper that I worked on for months is going to be when I get it back.

[mylanta]

Sure makes perfect sense....

[Pi rules]

So far it's running well after a small problem. Rich, you're going to love this:

It comes with Norton Internet Security 05! I didn't install it, though.

Thanks for all the advice, everyone! :wave:

[mylanta]

Hey PI try Bit Defender Free version, that solves all the problems of the "Antivirus Wars"....

[Pi rules]

No real-time scanning, though. Right now, I'm using Avast!, which does.

Anyway, my CPU is running at around 38-40 C with the fan at 1600-1700 rpm idle because I switched out the LED fans to some quiet fans I got a while back. Is this temp. a little too high? I know it isn't dangerous, but I don't like to stress the CPU for no reason. I was using just 30% and it got up to around 49 C with the CPU fan spinning at over 2000 rpm. So, should I put those LED fans (which blow more air, but make much more noise) back in?

I'm trying to figure out how/where to install fans. The case's front cover isn't coming off easily, and I'm not sure if I can pull harder without breaking it, so I don't know if I can install two intake fans in the front, but there are places in the back, side, and top. So, if I use the LED fans, should I put them in the side and back so they are near the CPU?

[jcampi]

Building my own PC is tempting, but then when I get the itch I read some of the posts on this site and rethink the venture. I wouldn't want to spend all that money and have problems putting the computer together. Plus, there isn't any warranty or anyone to call for support. If I'm only going to save about $250 I might just let Dell or HP do it for me.

[mylanta]

Usually the front has some tabs that extend off under each side, look carefully.
Bit Defender positively does scan in real time and you can set it to run system scans whenever you want as well.

[Pi rules]

I got the front part off and installed 2 front intake fans. The screws were a bit hard as well, but that's better than too loose.

Bit Defender positively does scan in real time and you can set it to run system scans whenever you want as well.
I'll look into it, thanks.

[photolady]

Originally posted by jcampi....If I'm only going to save about $250 I might just let Dell or HP do it for me. Then it ends up in my shop or someone elses, and costs are enormous to fix it. If you build yourself, you come here and we help you fix it for free. Enough said!!

[Pi rules]

Anyone know about what temps. that CPU should have at idle? Looking at reviews on Newegg, it looks like upper 30s and lower 40s is normal.

[casey]

If your in the upper thirties and lower forties your doing great.

40C = 104 F

40x9/5+32=104
8 x 9=72 +32 =104

Celsius number divided by 9/5 +32= fahrenheit temp..

[Pi rules]

Is it worth slightly higher temps (mid to upper 40s) for a more quiet PC? Right now it's audible from a few rooms away. I might try again and see what the temps are like.

[mylanta]

Is it worth slightly higher temps (mid to upper 40s) for a more quiet PC? Right now it's audible from a few rooms away. I might try again and see what the temps are like.

Mid to upper 40's is fine but if you are getting too much noise, you need to reset the Arctic Silver(and I would use only that brand name), and probably by someone elses heat synch and fan. I really recommend Thermaltake Volcanos which aren't expensive and do a great job!
Intel and Amd stock fans bite I am rapidly coming to the conclusion.

[Pi rules]

The noise isn't from the CPU fan, it's from the lighted case fans. The CPU fan did get a bit noisy last night, though, but I was stressing my CPU to test it. During idle or normal use, it's nearly silent.

[kerremelk]

Plus what PI forgets to mention is labor to put the whole thing together, throw the switch and have absolutely nothing happen! Can't beat it!!!!

Hi, that sounds like the GA 8iPE1000-G revision 4.0 I had to use as replacement for a motherboard with shot USB ports... when I hit the power button, no beep... nothing whatsoever.

this was in contrast to the GA-8i945 pro boards, and the 8i955X-Royal, all of which I can run XP-x64 on. (with 930 E64MT 2*2Mb cached intel CPUs).

4*1024 DDR2 is a waste on 945 chipset, they report 3.25Gb
they run really well with 2 Gb Geil matched sticks, tho.

have not yet tried 4*1024 on the royal, but I should.

[Dan18960]

Building my own PC is tempting, but then when I get the itch I read some of the posts on this site and rethink the venture. I wouldn't want to spend all that money and have problems putting the computer together. Plus, there isn't any warranty or anyone to call for support. If I'm only going to save about $250 I might just let Dell or HP do it for me.

John,

The savings can be far more than $250.00 IF you are looking at the EXTREME technology.

For example, I did my demo system for a photographer - my cost to build w/ XP Pro OEM operating system & shipping $1483.00. The cost of the FINAL build to the photographer $2499. Now the differences were (1) my system 128mb Video / theirs 256mb video (2) my system 2gb RAM / theirs 4gb RAM (3) my system 80gb SATA 10k hard drive / theirs 300gb SATA 7200 hard drive. Now I could have matched their configuration and still saved $600'ish by building it myself.

Now the system is a completely Extreme system - I am using the fastest DDR2 ram I could get at the time, the cpu was a high end Dual core processor (not the highest though), and everything else was "personal" taste. I put in 2 DVD +/- Dual Layer RW drives, I put in the FASTEST hard drive 10k vs 7200, and I went with a motherboard that is expandable to 8gb of RAM on board. Most are limited to 4gb.

I paid additional costs on the motherboard and processor because I got the Boxed versions from Intel - that way I am getting a 3 year warranty on the motherboard and the processor comes with a cooling fan w/ 3 year warranty also.

The nice thing about staying with Intel on your first build is that it is soooo easy. XP Pro (remember I don't do Home) loads right into the SATA drive. I didn't have to worry about the F6 drivers to get things to work. Everything was just a matter of plugging in the memory, plugging in the processor and fan, connecting the DVD drives, connecting the Floppy drive (yep I STILL use them), and plugging in the Video card (I also refuse to use on-board video on ANY of my motherboards).

Can you build a system for LESS than I did - sure, you can probably do it for less than $900 w/ the operating system. Can you get a Dell for less - MAYBE or sure! BUT you won't get a system as robust, you will be dictated to a Dell chipset NOT a true Intel board. Try going to Dell and putting in your tag number and look for the hardware drivers. You don't get a list of ONE driver, you get a selection and you better know which hardware you have BEFORE you screw up the system. Build that Intel box, go to intel.com, select the motherboard driver and you get ONE list. You may get a selection of how you do the BIOS update - but everything else is strictly for that motherboard model.

You can do a listing from NewEgg - doing just the Intel list and then duplicate that list to Dell - I have yet to find a Dell that cost less than what you can get the parts for at NewEgg - and I have built a system every year since '97 to spec our client's for the year.

[mylanta]

Let's look at a few other reasons here:
Can you rebuild the Dell, change the motherboard and cpu you have. Yes with Dell parts and their mobos are about $350 for a $50 mobo. Try to put another board in and it will screw down, but do you want it to start? Well forget that they have a proprietary switch for ps, reset, hdd power led and no listiung of in what order it is...any of my units I can change any part in an hour or less.The case I am currently using on unit one is on it's 5th system board. Oh and I have a cd for XP.
Did you know Dell gives you no software now? There is a reserve partition to restore with, but you have to pay extra to gain access to it. Actually I am not even sure the software is legitimate Prove that it is.
Want Ps2 ports for mouse and keyboard? Well you should. How about parallel ports for printer. Put everything you have on usb ports and watch how well they all run.
But here is the "biggy". If your hard drive goes on the Dell, you have to deal with Dell. They go by the warranty you purchase and the hard drive maker won't even talk to you. If you buy a WD, which is better than anything Dell puts in a pc, you have a 3 year warranty, or Seagate a 5 year warranty and that beats the Dell 1 year. Oh or 3 years on Intel mobo as Dan said or how about lifetime on Kingston, Crucial or Corsair ram. Sure beats a year from Dell or pay extra to get 3 years but you won't have lifetime. And so on with every single piece of hardware....thing $250 is worth it, the fact you get a Windows cd takes away $200 of it and the warranties cover the rest!

[Pi rules]

My northbridge is running quite warm (no sensor, but I can feel it, and, after powering down, turning off & unpluging the psu, it's warmer than the CPU heatsink. So, I looked to see what I could find, and I found an ancient CPU cooler (40mm) that kind of fits, so I installed it. I'm not sure if it's helping much, though.

I'll have to figure out better cooling for my case. Currently, I have 2 intake in the front by the hdds, top & rear exhaust, and a side intake. They are all fairly quiet Cooler Master, but I have 4 LED fans that can with this and another case that blow more air (and make much more noise). Any ideas on how to set up the cooling better? Right now, my case temp. probe is showing 81 F when my room temp is around 75-76. :(

Oh well, I have to go, there's a large thunderstorm and I don't want to blow a psu if the power goes...

[dbarrow]

Thermaltake Big Water kit.... the ultimate solution

[mommalina]

kerremelk, :welcome: to the KH Forum! Glad to have you aboard.

We invite you to also join us in our KH Computer Help Desk Paltalk chatroom. We are there each Wednesday night, from 9 pm until whenever. Here's how to get there:

www.paltalk.com *
Chatrooms
Rooms
Computers & Technology
Computer Help & Advice
KH Computer Help Desk

* you need to download Paltalk messenger 8.3 software first if you don't already have Paltalk on your system.

There you can find or give one-on-one, hands-on help for computer problems, teach or learn about new developments in computers and software. Computer subjects get first priority. If there is a lull, then humor, finance, and whatever can be discussed intermittently. We try not to talk about politics or religion .... there's enough disagreement about antivirus scanners. LOL

Again, welcome, kerremelk,:cheer2:

Lina

[Pi rules]

Thermaltake Big Water kit.... the ultimate solution I don't have that much money to spend on cooling. :( That little fan is pushing out a lot of air (hotter than I expected) for it's size, but makes a lot of noise. Think it's worth it?

PS: Welcome, kerremelk. :welcome:

[jcampi]

Ok. I'm starting to see the light. I've priced some computers at the Dell surplus site. The dual core intel models were all about $900 to $1,000. It does seem like AMD offers greater performance at a decent price. Someone needs to explain the details to me about exactly how a dual core CPU with a speed of 2.8GHz behaves like a 3.8GHz CPU. Is it the dual core or the architechture or both? I currently have a Dell PC with a P4 2.4GHz intel processor. It performs fine - for now, but I'm starting to get itchy. The dual core processors are tempting me. I'm not in a hurry, but building a new PC with a dual core CPU while I relay on my current PC is pretty tempting. I'd kind of like to keep the cost under $1,000 and get the biggest bang for the buck. I would possibly have the cast on hand to build a PC sometime near fall 2006 so I'm not in a hurry to do this yet. I'm about split on the intel vs. AMD CPU choice. I kind of prefer intel, but would consider AMD if the price and performance is similar. What kind of mainboard is best suited for AMD Dual Core CPU's and how did they get over issues with the chipset???

[mylanta]

John,
See my post here as there is a problem and I am unclear on exactly how to proceed right now.
http://www.kickenhardware.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2572
A Mod on Tech Support Guy forum who I respect a lot believes the ATi Crossfire chipset is the way around this, but it's new and other than him I know no one who has used it. I do not have the problem with this mobo and in fact was not even aware of it so I can highly recommend it:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813138270

I had 2 Asus returns enough to tell us to stay away from them for certain with nvidia Nforce4 chipsets. This board looks good to me though also:
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=247035
But others must think that too as it is out of stock!
The Intel dual cores might be cheaper now but it is also sort of new to Intel and once you add 64 bit, which makes sense to have now, even though we won't use it for years to come, then the Intel cpu's prices go through the roof!

[jcampi]

Rich, I'm still confused. Intel processors with mainboards using an intel chipset seem very compatable. From your other posts it seems like AMD still has issues with the chipset depending on the mainboard selected. Why doesn't AMD just cooperate with a mainboard maker and provide the board's chipset to resolve this issue once and for all? From your post it seems like boards with an nvidia chipset are fairly compatable with AMD dual core processors.

[dbarrow]

I'll let you know soon how we make out with son's new creation.
Since he is building around an X850XT PE AGP card we already have, his choice is limited in mobos.
We are going to use an Asus P5P800 SE which has socket 775 and supports dual core CPUs with 2g of Corsair low latency ram and an 805D overclocked to about 4g.

If the results are anywhere near daughter's P4P800D with a P4 2.4 clocked at 3.2, I'll be happy. That machine, now 3 yrs old, continues to amaze me with performance almost equal to my Abit Fataility AA8XE with a 3.4 at 3.8.

http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/05/10/dual_41_ghz_cores/

[jcampi]

Just for the heck of it I went to the Dell site and speced out a PC. I'm confused by the different intel processors. There is Pentium 4 HT Processor 650 3.4GHz, Pentium D Processor 820 2.8GHz (Dual Core), Pentium D 930 3.0GHz (Dual Core) and Pentium D 940 3.2GHz (Dual Core). I would think the dual core processors perform better than the 3.4GHz P4 HT one. The P4 3.4GHz HT CPU is priced at the top of the heap.
I'm actually impressed that I could spec. out such a nice PC for under $1,000. This includes a good graphics card and on-board sound. I really don't mind the on-board sound and already have a subwoofer and two speakers. We listen to music on the PC and I think this will be fine. I could always opt for a sound card later and add it myself if I want to. I'm attaching a link so you can check out the specs of this PC if you'd like. What is your opinion on this model? Regardless of if I build a PC or buy one - my target would be less than $1,000.
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&fb=1&l=en&oc=DE510SAP&s=dhs

[mylanta]

Rich, I'm still confused. Intel processors with mainboards using an intel chipset seem very compatable. From your other posts it seems like AMD still has issues with the chipset depending on the mainboard selected. Why doesn't AMD just cooperate with a mainboard maker and provide the board's chipset to resolve this issue once and for all? From your post it seems like boards with an nvidia chipset are fairly compatable with AMD dual core processors.

John,
Dual core Athlons and usb storage devices may malfunction on many boards, The ATi will not havethe problem. The problem appears to me to be surmountable by not installing the nvidia NForce4 drivers except for ethernet card. We expect a bios update sooner or later that will solve this. The Biostar board I listed does not ahve the problem and is a great baord.

[jcampi]

I spent time tonight looking at the intel site. I'm confused by their cpu labeling. They offer dual core processors and also a P4 HT processor. One site stated the P4 HT processor was a dual core. It this true? I would think the best processor would be dual core with HT (Hyper Threading).

[jcampi]

Is it best to get a case with or without the power supply? How many watts should the power supply be and will it work with intel/AMD mainboards?

[Pi rules]

Usually, power supplies that come with cases are not of good quality, so you should at least have an extra laying around if you decide to chance it. Keep the case psu, though in case something happens to your good one. The power supply wattage needs depend on the system. For mine, I just got a 500 watt because it was more than sufficient and allows for future expansion. Also, it was on sale. :)

[mylanta]

450-500 for a non gaming average unit is more than enough, but buy the quality of Thermaltake, Enermax or Antec. A generic bargain brand with 600watts will be outperformed by a 300 watt of the good ones.

[Dan18960]

I have YET to have a problem with ANY case I got with the psu in. I am even running my dual core on a case installed psu.

I just recently had to replace one of my power supplies after loaning the system to a client who had surgery. I don't know what they did - but the power supply was definitely banged against something in transit.

Again, if you get the case that is rated for the motherboard you are looking at - you should be fine.

Of course, now I might have a problem since I wrote this - but after 5 years, I guess a power supply could go any time :juggle:

[mylanta]

Dan,
It is a really poor idea to use psu's already in case unless you are buying Antec, Enermax or Themaltake, who make them as well. Actually Aspire does too, but again they are not really a known good brand for same. That is a basic tenet of system building. We all know the wattage is meaningless with a psu, and the maker is everything.

[Dan18960]

Rich,

Well, I guess I just have some really good dumb luck with my cases then. Like I said I have NEVER changed a power supply included with the case right out of the running. I have changed power supplies after YEARS of running 24/7 but if I do a half dozen a year that is a lot. I think all of last year I changed out maybe 3 power supplies. And ALL of them came in the cases as is and were over 3 years old in the least.

And like I said, I just changed out a power supply in a system I loaned a client but that was from abuse - not the power supply being weak or dying.

And I have used Foxconn boxes now for 4 years with the power supplies they provide in my personal systems.

[PeteF]

Dan,
It is a really poor idea to use psu's already in case unless you are buying Antec, Enermax or Themaltake, who make them as well. Actually Aspire does too, but again they are not really a known good brand for same. That is a basic tenet of system building. We all know the wattage is meaningless with a psu, and the maker is everything.

Rich, I'm not a PC builder except for my own use, but my electronics
training tells me you are correct. The PSU is like the foundation of a home.
You can't go wrong by oversizing the PSU (foundation).

I read Dan's post and he is making his assessment of PSU reliabiity based
upon failure rate, but it's my understanding that a bad PSU can cause other
problems of instability due to voltage drops under load. My question is,
what are the symptoms of a low quality PSU in a working system?
I suspect it means more freezes and more occurances of BSOD (BlueScreenOfDeath).

Another very important thing to consider on PSU selection is overload
or short circuit protection. You definitely want a PSU with short circuit
protection because a component like a hard drive can fail (short circuit
failure) and you don't want it to take out the PSU in the process.
Cheap PSU's don't have short circuit protection and I've seen whole
PSUs burn up due to a hard drive failure.

A cheap PSU will also be more prone to unstable power line conditions,
so I'd definitely recommend a UPS with power line conditioning if you
know you have a cheap PSU.

PS: Sam posted today that without good reason his system
crashed again. I immediately suspect PSU problems.
Always check the foundation first! ;)

---pete---

[mylanta]

Right Pete, the psu is the heart of the system and a cheap one will blow easily and the real danger isn't the $50 psu either. When a psu blows as opposed to dies, it can and often times will take the mobo and cpu with it.
You are correct symptoms are freezes that seem to be heat oriented, drives that won't work or are not seen, odd fluctuations and even lines in the monitor...it can show up in so many different ways.
Users make the mistake of judging by wattage, and a crap psu like a Powmax or Empire will never reach that wattage, it is only a Max whereas a 430 Thermaltake will and will maintain the good wattage which the crud one will not. I have changed boards to see a junk psu croak... built systems where the ones in the case would light the board and run the fans and would not boot, and it can happen ina year. Buy a psu from a psu maker and your odds are so much better.

[mylanta]

Right Pete, the psu is the heart of the system and a cheap one will blow easily and the real danger isn't the $50 psu either. When a psu blows as opposed to dies, it can and often times will take the mobo and cpu with it.
You are correct symptoms are freezes that seem to be heat oriented, drives that won't work or are not seen, odd fluctuations and even lines in the monitor...it can show up in so many different ways.
Users make the mistake of judging by wattage, and a crap psu like a Powmax or Empire will never reach that wattage, it is only a Max whereas a 430 Thermaltake will and will maintain the good wattage which the crud one will not. I have changed boards to see a junk psu croak... built systems where the ones in the case would light the board and run the fans and would not boot, and it can happen ina year. Buy a psu from a psu maker and your odds are so much better.

PS I hope you don't mean Sam's newest OS crashed again...I think his is bad hard drive and am addressing that.

[dbarrow]

I posted links to several articles a while back on PSU reviews.
What was a real shocker, several of the top "name brand" PSUs failed miserably in some of the tests or had less than stellar performance.

It's NOT about wattage, although you still have to calculate adequate + 30% overage for all your devices.
It's all about CONSISTANT line voltage at correct specified levels and "power conditioning".

As Rich and I have noted, it's the intermittant strange quirks and gremlins in the machine that have you chasing problems with heat, ram, CPU, and all the other common causes for crashes and BSODS that are frequently caused by a PSU problem. A brief and very minor undervolt of as little as 0.5 volt can cause any of these symptoms especially if a component has a very narrow spec tollerance. A cd motor or hd motor spins up or a vid card sucks juice to do a complex graphic and the PSU fails to respond fast enough to maintain sufficient voltage on one or more of the mains. The event happens in milliseconds and depending on what the CPU and ram are doing at the time can look like a problem with either one of them.

The problem is particularly evident on high end gaming machines where heavy demand on CPU,ram, HD and vid processing on the GPU can combine into a heavy demand for power on a scene change. The PSU has to correctly meet that demand and maintain adequate voltage or you get a game crash or BSOD and the symptoms will very much look like a ram or CPU problem.

Desktop applications rarely cause these issues but if you have a strange and intermittant quirk you just can't put your finger on ... try a different PSU!