System Restore - Thunder Storm

[mommalina]

I was 3/4th of the way through a System Restore, when I heard very loud thunder and rain. There was no way to interrupt System Restore except by using the power button. I prayed as I waited for Sytem Restore to finish and quickly shut it off through Start.

It was a close call. Power went out immediately after I shut down the computer and pulled electrical and phone connections.

Should I have used the power button? Or should I have chanced it?

Lina

[mylanta]

Under those circumstances never push the power button to close down.

[PeteF]

I was 3/4th of the way through a System Restore, when I heard very loud thunder and rain. There was no way to interrupt System Restore except by using the power button. I prayed as I waited for Sytem Restore to finish and quickly shut it off through Start.


I agree with Rich, but let me add, this is a good example why it's
such a good idea to have a UPS (uninteruptable power supply)
with power conditioning. A good qualiy UPS has ports to
protect your phone line too. ---pete---

[kelly]

Pete, good advice. Whenever I'm working a desktop machine, it's connected to a UPS. This is especially important when messing with system files like when doing System Restore or defragging. Mess up a System File and you could be looking at a Windows repair or reinstall.
-td

[PeteF]

Pete, good advice. Whenever I'm working a desktop machine, it's connected to a UPS. This is especially important when messing with system files like when doing System Restore or defragging. Mess up a System File and you could be looking at a Windows repair or reinstall.
-td

I agree. Not only that but it's so nice when the power goes out and
you can continue working for a limited period of time. I purposely oversized
my UPS to handle multiple PCs as well as my stereo system and TV.
When the UPS kicks in on a power outage, I often have 2 PCs running
and the TV too where the UPS reports I have 20 minutes of backup
power remaining. So I turn off the TV and the other computer which
results in the UPS reporting I have over 90 minutes of backup power
remaining.

Another advantage of oversizing your UPS is that the batteries last
longer. Normaly they recommend changing the batteries every
3 years or so, but mine lasted about 10 years.

---pete---

[rVidia]

Speaking of UPSs, if you're looking for a low-end unit, what would you think of this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16842106125)? Only four outlets, but 800VA and 65 minutes of battery run time.

[writeco]

You should remember that battery run time is directly dependent on the number of devices that you have connected to the UPS. In the worst case my rule of thumb is that a UPS, like the APC Pro 1000 that I have, should only allow for a graceful shutdown. Anything else is gravey. For that reason I only have my CPU and monitor connected to the UPS.

If you were doing a full restore from a image backup created by Acronis or Ghost, you could use your recovery CD and just restart the process. Sure it take more time to create and use but it is a lot safer ... in my humble opinion.

[kelly]

I was without power for almost 24 hours yesterday. I used my laptops to access the Internet via dial-up as I normally do. I have a UPS connected to my desktop machine which I didn't need yesterday. So I put it to use to power a light in the office. It could also have been used to power the radio and small TV. Althought I didn't need the UPS for its intended purpose to keep the computer going, it came in handy to power other devices.

- tony d

[rVidia]

Thank you for the responses. Based on looking for a low-end UPS, out of these three, what would you recommend (for home)? Other suggestions in this price range (approx. $100, or less) would also be appreciated :D

1) This (http://www.powercom-usa.com/ProductDetail.asp?ID=3618) Powercom unit
2) This (http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BE725BB) APC unit
3) This (http://www.mgeups.com/products/pdt120/1ph/ellipse/html/frame.htm) MGE unit

[kelly]

APC is a good brand. I'd look for something with more surge protection, maybe 1700 Joules or more.
Will you be using the UPS on an unattended machine? If not, then don't be concerned about communications and management features.

- tony d

[rVidia]

Will you be using the UPS on an unattended machine? If not, then don't be concerned about communications and management features.

I won't be concerned with that.

APC is a good brand. I'd look for something with more surge protection, maybe 1700 Joules or more.

Thanks for the suggestion. Is there a particular UPS in this price range that you would recommend? At $120, the best I've seen so far is 420 Joules, and that's already a few $$ over the budget.

[PeteF]

I won't be concerned with that.



Thanks for the suggestion. Is there a particular UPS in this price range that you would recommend? At $120, the best I've seen so far is 420 Joules, and that's already a few $$ over the budget.

Here would be my first choice.
http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BK500&total_watts=200

Here would be my second choice.
http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BK350&total_watts=200
http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?pfp=SEARCH&Ntt=APC+UPS&N=10&Ne=500000&Ntk=All&product_code=50166649&Pn=Back_UPS_CS_350_UPS

Both would be the same for lightning protection.
The higher VA rating provides more backup power.

Before you buy you really need to size the unit to the equipment.
http://www.apc.com/tools/ups_selector/index.cfm

---pete---

[jcampi]

You can have the UPS. I'll take True Image from Acronis. System Restore is troublsome any way. I have tried to use System Restore several times and each time is caused more issues. For me, a reliable power source isn't the answer because the root issue is the poor performance of System Restore. A good back up or imaging software is vital nowadays.

[kern]

Is there a particular UPS in this price range that you would recommend? At $120, the best I've seen so far is 420 Joules, and that's already a few $$ over the budget.


Good -->
http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/APC-UPS-Surge-Protector-BE650R-/sem/rpsm/oid/136128/catOid/-13021/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

Better -->
http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?pfp=BROWSE&N=200082+400748&Ne=400000&Ns=display%5Fprice%7C0&product_code=300487&Pn=Back_UPS_ES_725_UPS

Best -->
http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?pfp=BROWSE&N=200082+400748&Ne=400000&Ns=display%5Fprice%7C0&product_code=338486&Pn=Back_UPS_XS

[mikehende]

I am not clear on this issue, I have always thought that THE surest way to prevent damage to your pc is to not have it plugged into the wall during T-Storms, I am sure we all will agree with this but this is not always practical, I think I understand how a UPS will help this situation but what I'd like to ask is this, will it make a difference if the pc is ON during a storm or off but still plugged into the wall, assuming that the pc is only connected to a regular run of the mill power strip?

[mylanta]

Probably not because on or off with a strike the system would most likely be lost.

[dbarrow]

No power protection, UPS, power conditioner or surge suppressor can halt the effects of a direct hit with thousands of volts.

Very close strikes, like a transformer, phone, or cable line right outside your house form convenient paths to ground for "splash over" where even not normally conductive material becomes conductive under such high voltage.

If your machine is plugged in, it is connected to ground.
The energy from a splash that enters the house can jump right to the case and to ground. It can come in through a phone line, modem, cable, cable modem.
Lightning does strange stuff!

I remember, as a kid, being in the neighbors house and watching a bolt of lightning come in through the kitchen window, travel horizontal through the kitchen, diningroom, and living room and exit out the front window. It passed through a room fan on a stand in the middle. Didn't leave a mark on anything else but melted the fan into a smoking heap of junk (not to mention making us crap our pants!).

I saw one house that took a hit on the siding on the side of the house. Blew the aluminum siding off the wall half way to the roof but didn't burn anything. It didn't hurt the electrical wiring at all but blew the solder out of every single plumbing joint in the entire house!

Then there was the hit on a transformer that set fire to 10 houses at the same time in the same block.... Blew the main service boxes right off the wall and exploded tv sets, phones, microwaves, you name it! That was a fun day!

And, of course, my own experience with a splash from a hit down the block. The attic fan in third story window wouldn't work after the storm. Fan wasn't hurt, switch was fine, but I found it blew the wire nuts off the wires in a connector box ten feet from the fan.

[mikehende]

No power protection, UPS, power conditioner or surge suppressor can halt the effects of a direct hit with thousands of volts.


Very interesting stuff here DBarrow, I have NEVER heard of lightning travelling "horizontally" and especially going "through" a room, you've give me a lot to think about next time T-storms hit becuase I like watching the lightning and have always stood at the window to take in the view always believing that Lightning only hits vertically.

Regarding the quote above, now I am totally confused here, if this is the case, then what's the use of purchasing an expensive UPS?

[Terry Hanushek]

Mike

Doug wrote: No power protection, UPS, power conditioner or surge suppressor can halt the effects of a direct hit with thousands of volts.
Regarding the quote above, now I am totally confused here, if this is the case, then what's the use of purchasing an expensive UPS?
A direct lighting strike is extremely rare (I've never seen or experienced one) but power outages happen frequently. A UPS (uninterruptible power source) gives you time to save your current work and shut down your machine in an orderly manner. An important secondary function is line conditioning; even it power does not go out, it can fluctuate and cause problems for your machine.

Expensive is a relative term. Rob gave us a link to a top of the line UPS for about $100. It doesn't take too many lost documents to consider a UPS a good investment.

Terry

[mikehende]

Ok, understood, thanks!

[kelly]

Today's machines are always on to an extent. As long as they're plugged in, their standby power is looking for the user to press the power switch. So there's always some power being applied to the electronics. However, I believe the main +12 and + 5 volts rails are not powered when the system is in standby. Some of you builders please chime in here/

If a machine receives a strike, depending on the severity, I could see where the strike would take out a mobo, power supply, expansion cards, etc if it where powered up. I could also see where the strike may not affect certain component like the expansion cards, hard drive, floppy and CD drives if the machine were turned off during the strike.

- tony d

[dbarrow]

Still plugged in and therefore has a ground.
Electricity, once you get in the thousands of volts in a lightning bolt, has unusual characteristics seeking ground and can jump across, around and through things not normally considered conductive.

Take the person who gets "splashed" from a bolt and the charge travels around the outside of his body. Enough to cause some burns and blow clothes off but not fatal.
And then... there was a guy in a tent 25' or more from the tree that got hit. He was deader than a doornail but the six kids in the tend with him only got a "tingle" with no lasting effects. I have treated 3 "lighting strike" victims and there was no logic or reasoning. Same as the many "lightning strike" caused fires I have gone to where damage was just plain strange.
I was parked in my cop car one day watching a storm when a direct hit whacked a tree about 30' away. The explosion of bark and branches almost scared me to death!
Strangest (and extremely rare) phenomenea I ever saw was true "ball lightning" when, while driving around in the cop car, I saw a bolt hit the chimney on a house just down the street, form a 3' glowing ball with little sparks and lightning bolts coming off of it that gently and slowly rolled down the chimney until it got to the ground where it exploded in a big poof. It lasted a good 30 seconds before it hit ground.

Not to mention strange after effects....
Bolt hit 20,000 volt primary line near the hospital bringing it down. The breakers didn't kick and it continued to arc.
If you have ever watched a big primary burning and dancing... like a huge arc welder!
It ate through the street and burned a 10' deep crater in the ground. Big problem was, it was grounding itself to the gas and water mains buried under there.
Gas got in the water, water got in the gas, anything connected to them was "hot" until they shut it off.
You should have seen what it did to the houses in a 2 block radius... water coming out of stoves and pilot lights, gas bubbles coming out of the water taps, all kinds of appliances trashed.
Took them weeks to clean up that mess!
Utilities guys told it is was the strangest mess they ever saw!

[dale@fcg]

Doug,
Do you live in the Twilight Zone?

[kern]

Very interesting stuff here DBarrow, I have NEVER heard of lightning travelling "horizontally" and especially going "through" a room, you've give me a lot to think about next time T-storms hit becuase I like watching the lightning and have always stood at the window to take in the view always believing that Lightning only hits vertically.

Regarding the quote above, now I am totally confused here, if this is the case, then what's the use of purchasing an expensive UPS?


Mike,
I posted a brief overview of the why's and how's of UPS's here--->
http://www.kickenhardware.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3027

[rVidia]

Good -->
http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/APC-UPS-Surge-Protector-BE650R-/sem/rpsm/oid/136128/catOid/-13021/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

Better -->
http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?pfp=BROWSE&N=200082+400748&Ne=400000&Ns=display%5Fprice%7C0&product_code=300487&Pn=Back_UPS_ES_725_UPS

Best -->
http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?pfp=BROWSE&N=200082+400748&Ne=400000&Ns=display%5Fprice%7C0&product_code=338486&Pn=Back_UPS_XS

Rob:

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll definitely look into them.

I appreciate everyone's comments on this!

[mikehende]

Thanks for the tutorial Kern, so if I understand it correctly, an SPS [Offline] is better than the "online" UPS?

[kern]

Thank you for the responses. Based on looking for a low-end UPS,... what would you recommend (for home)? Other suggestions in this price range (approx. $100, or less) would also be appreciated

heres a good deal on a 450watt ups from compusa-->
http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?product_code=300487&pfp=EXTERNAL

http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BE725BB&total_watts=200