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rVidia
07-20-2006, 11:53 AM
Please note this post only pertains to machines with Windows XP installed.

Access is prevented to the websites listed in your HOSTS file, so if you're irritated by a particular pop-up, for example, you could simply add the website it’s coming from to your HOSTS file.

The first step in editing your HOSTS file is to find it.

My Computer > C: (or whatever drive Windows is on) > WINDOWS > system32 > drivers > etc > hosts

Note: If you aren't sure where My Computer is :noidea: or you just want to use a keyboard shortcut to open it, you can hold down the Windows key (which looks like this (http://www.cisp.com/enews/myvine/july04/windowskey.jpg)) on your keyboard while you press the “E” key.

Right-click on the HOSTS file, and click Open. A window will appear asking what to open it with; find Notepad, select it, and click OK.

If you've never edited your HOSTS file before, this is what it should look like:

# Copyright (c) 1993-1999 Microsoft Corp.
#
# This is a sample HOSTS file used by Microsoft TCP/IP for Windows.
#
# This file contains the mappings of IP addresses to host names. Each
# entry should be kept on an individual line. The IP address should
# be placed in the first column followed by the corresponding host name.
# The IP address and the host name should be separated by at least one
# space.
#
# Additionally, comments (such as these) may be inserted on individual
# lines or following the machine name denoted by a '#' symbol.
#
# For example:
#
# 102.54.94.97 rhino.acme.com # source server
# 38.25.63.10 x.acme.com # x client host

127.0.0.1 localhost

You'll notice all entries begin with “127.0.0.1”; all entries MUST begin with this. If a website is preceded by “127.0.0.1”, this means the website cannot load and is blocked. The first entry in the HOSTS file is “127.0.0.1 localhost”. Your HOSTS file MUST begin with that entry.

To add websites to your HOSTS file (to block them), use this as a guideline:
127.0.0.1 www.blockthiswebsite.com

After you've edited your HOSTS file, save the changes made (File > Save).

You’re done!

Optional but recommended:

If you would like to use a pre-made HOSTS file, I recommend you use the MVPS HOSTS file (http://www.mvps.org/winhelp2002/hosts.txt). This HOSTS file blocks websites with ads/banners, parasites, hijackers, and unwanted search engines.

In many cases using a well designed HOSTS file can speed the loading of web pages by not having to wait for these ads, annoying banners, hit counters, etc. to load. This also helps to protect your Privacy and Security by blocking sites that may track your viewing habits, also known as "click-thru tracking" or Data Miners. Simply using a HOSTS file is not a cure-all against all the dangers on the Internet, but it does provide another effective "Layer of Protection".

If you would like to use the MVPS HOSTS file, open your HOSTS file and delete everything in it. Copy everything in the MVPS HOSTS file (http://www.mvps.org/winhelp2002/hosts.txt) (a quick way to select everything is Ctrl+A, then right-click > Copy). Once everything is copied, paste it into your HOSTS file (right-click > Paste). Then, you can save.

Optional but recommended:

I would also suggest you make your HOSTS file read-only. This is not necessary, but by doing so, it makes it harder for malicious software to modify your HOSTS file. To make your HOSTS file read-only:

1) Right-click on the HOSTS file
2) Click Properties
3) You will see a window open. Look at the bottom of the window. To the right of Attributes, check the box that says Read-only.
4) Click Apply/OK.

Note: When your HOSTS file is read-only, you cannot make any changes to it (setting it to read-only helps in preventing modifications to the file), so if you want to add a new entry to your HOSTS file later on, you'll have to uncheck the Read-only box before you edit; you can then set it back to read-only when you're finished.

Tortanick
07-20-2006, 12:45 PM
Shoudln't this be in Tips and Tricks?

Also I think the readers would benifit from some precompiled hosts files that block access to sites with known drive by downloads.

Finally there is a service called DNS client, if your hosts file gets too big this supposedly causes lag. according to mvps.org (http://www.mvps.org/winhelp2002/hosts.htm). Wikipedia disagrees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hosts_file#Windows_Quirks) saying that the hosts file will be ignored if the DNS client is run

rVidia
07-20-2006, 01:16 PM
Tortanick:

I believe the MVPS HOSTS file blocks access to known websites with drive-by downloads. How to use this HOSTS file is explained in my first post.

As far as the DNS client...

Editors Note: in most cases a large HOSTS file (over 135 kb) tends to slow down the machine. This only occurs in W2000 and XP. Windows 98 and ME are not affected.

To resolve this issue (manually) open the "Services Editor"
Start | Run (type) "services.msc" (no quotes)
Scroll down to "DNS Client", Right-click and select: Properties
Click the drop-down arrow for "Startup type"
Select: Manual, click Apply/Ok and restart.

You can see that the above "Service" is not needed (after a little browsing) by opening the Services Editor again, scroll down to DNS Client and check the "Status" column. It should be blank, if it was needed it would show "Started" in that column.

This makes perfect sense. For instance, I have the Application Layer Gateway Service set to Manual. If I open the Services Editor, it is "Started" under the Status column. When DNS Client is set to Manual, it is blank; it is not necessary - if it was, it would also be "Started"

I personally have the DNS Client set to disabled and have no problems. Thanks for pointing that out.

Tortanick
07-20-2006, 02:52 PM
I know what the MVPS hosts file dose, I'm one satisfied user ;)

I just think that while your guide is usefull a breif metion of one or more premade hosts files wouldn't go amis

rVidia
07-20-2006, 03:09 PM
Thanks for the input! I added a brief description of the MVPS HOSTS file and instructions on how to use it.

I also deleted one of my posts and incorporated it into my first post (the "Note" at the end).

Tortanick
07-20-2006, 05:07 PM
Your welcome :)

dbarrow
07-20-2006, 05:49 PM
The subject has been mentioned before, although it may be lost in the archives.
A HOSTS file loaded with one of the many lists that are out there ... Google search to find more... makes a very effective spam filter and site blocker.

Some popup blockers do/did actually use the HOSTS file by adding their blocked URLS to it, as Popup Cop did in IE.

This works with apps other than your browser that use the internet to serve up ads including Pal Talk and AOL AIM.
If you can find the URL of the offending ad, just copy it into Hosts file with the 127.0.0.1. That ad frame will now be blocked.

The only drawback is that you will see the default "Page can not be loaded" default blank htm instead of the ad.
That default can also be modified to a display of your choice if you want to modify it.

When you find one of these Hosts file adware lists, just append it to your current file. The more, the better.

rVidia
07-21-2006, 12:05 PM
The only other thing: When you add a new entry to the HOSTS file, make sure you use the domain portion [1] of the ad's URL.

Also, if you have SpywareBlaster installed, you can make a backup copy of your HOSTS file in the Tools section. If you ever have any problems, you could just restore your HOSTS file from within SpywareBlaster.

[1] HOSTS files only block "whole" websites; for example,

http://subdomain.website.com/something/something.html (the ad's specific URL) --> you must use subdomain.website.com in your HOSTS file

kern
07-21-2006, 02:55 PM
Shoudln't this be in Tips and Tricks?

yep. done,

btw, excellent post Ray!

rVidia
07-23-2006, 02:01 AM
Thanks for the kind words, kern.

I've decided to attach my original document (zipped) if anyone is interested in reading it. It is primarily my first post and various posts after that but only slightly more complex. There's also some additional information I wrote up, including how to make a very simple HOSTS file editor (basically a desktop shortcut to open up the HOSTS file in Notepad). It's a four page document, although it's probably more like 2 - 2 1/2 if you take out spacing.

Again, I appreciate all the input :D

Ray

dale@fcg
07-23-2006, 09:31 PM
I have a host and a host.tmp file. Which one do I want to append?

Also, what sites can I visit to test that ads and popups are blocked?

Lastly, how do I determine the address of an add within a window, such as the lousy Circuit City add I was fighting last
Wed in Paltalk?

mylanta
07-24-2006, 07:44 AM
Here is the best way I know how:
www.admuncher.com
Some folks will do anything to save $25.

Tortanick
07-24-2006, 01:25 PM
You say that like its a problem, I block 99% of ads for free, why spend money?

mylanta
07-24-2006, 01:56 PM
You say that like its a problem, I block 99% of ads for free, why spend money?
It's a question of how much you value your time. I would much rather spend $25 once in my lifetime to never have the problem, then laboriously search through hosts file and add and subtract, everytime a new "pain in the ass" piece of advertising comes along...I value my time at a premium!I took one look at those posts on setting master hosts file, and knew instantaneously that requires patience and time that I couldn't even muster that up to read those threads. While you are saving $25, I am repairing someone's pc!

dbarrow
07-24-2006, 03:23 PM
Since the advent of popup blocking in IE and Firefox, HOSTS file is largely irrelevant.
It can come in handy for non-browser or mini-browser programs like Pal Talk, AIM, MSN IM that spawn popups when you are not actually in a browser.

AdMuncher is, by far, the best ad blocker going, especially to kill annoying flash ads that otherwise would require you to turn off the flash player in your browser. It stays current with the latest ad address lists and is well worth the price.

ADBLOCK plugin for Firefox is almost as good but requires continual tuning and manual update.

rVidia
07-24-2006, 03:56 PM
I have a host and a host.tmp file. Which one do I want to append?

A .tmp file is a temporary file. They're generally created when you're working on a file and are usually deleted after you close out of that file, but sometimes they're not removed. In this case, remember .tmp files are "temporary" and can usually be deleted without doing any harm to your system. Some people make a hosts.tmp file for different reasons, say, hosts for home, hosts.tmp for work. I don't have a hosts.tmp file and only use "hosts" -- you'll probably want to append entries to the "hosts" file also (it has no extension).

Also, what sites can I visit to test that ads and popups are blocked?

You can test any site you'd like. Try adding the entry

127.0.0.1 www.paltalk.com

to your HOSTS file and then open up your browser and try to go to paltalk.com; if it's working, nothing should happen and you shouldn't be able to view the website. You can then remove that entry from your HOSTS file if you want to be able to access paltalk.com

Lastly, how do I determine the address of an add within a window, such as the lousy Circuit City add I was fighting last
Wed in Paltalk?

The problem is, several pop-up ads are written by scripts running in the original window, so you may not be able to find a specific URL for it. In that case, you would have to add the website the pop-up is coming from (the homepage of the website) to your HOSTS file and, in turn, would not be able to view the website at all. Many times, however, the URL is the title of the pop-up window.

You could try viewing the source code of the pop-up. In IE, right-click and select "View Source" and in Firefox, press Ctrl-U. The only other problem here is the fact that HOSTS files only block *whole* websites, meaning you can only use the domain portion of the ad's URL (I updated the attachment with this information on p.2). If you don't like the sounds of that, then AdMuncher would be a better solution as some others suggested.

Hopefully this will help you out, dale :smile:

Tortanick
07-24-2006, 04:40 PM
It's a question of how much you value your time. I would much rather spend $25 once in my lifetime to never have the problem,

I installed the MVPS hosts file, and I got privoxy bundled with Tor (not sure if it did anything to help fitler ads)

Thats 99% of them gone, hardly expensive in terms of time,

http://web.it.kth.se/~mana/piero/einstein.gif

dale@fcg
07-24-2006, 09:19 PM
So far, on my laptop, the host file is blocking everything just fine! Took me less than 5 minutes to open host file, copy and paste entries, save file. Let's put that in terms of money: $25 for 5 minutes x 12 = $300 an hour. Man, I'm gonna be rich!
Maybe I'll even be Rich M!

Seriously, Rich, it's not a bad deal for the little bit I have to use IE.

Also, I'm lovin Admuncher. I even went onto Paltalk and did handstands and downright lauged out loud when that blasted add below the text box was munched.

PeteF
10-19-2006, 02:12 AM
Did you know that Spybot has the ability to load the HOSTS file?
Yes, Spybot currently loads over 2,000 entires to the HOSTS file.

Here's how....

1.) Start Spybot and set mode to advanced mode.

2.) Click..Tools then double click.. the text of Hosts File
Note: Click the text; don't click the check box;
Check box for Hosts File is normally unchecked

3.) Click.. + Add Spybot-S&D hosts list
You will now see the host file loaded.

4.) Exit Spybot.

Be aware that having the Hosts file loaded will result in you being
blocked from many websites no matter which web browser you use.
On my computer I tried going to www.regnow.com (an entery in
HOSTS file) and IE takes me to http:/sea.search.msn.com with
an error message indicating We can't find www.regnow.com"
Firefox displays the "Unable to connect" page.

---pete---

fleamailman
10-19-2006, 11:52 AM
I really enjoyed this read, nice work, great effort

questions
- if I uninstalled spybot, would my host file lose the list
- if yes, should I copy store repaste after the uninstalling of spybot
- could I just copy the contents of the host file from someone who has spybot installed
- is there a site where I keep periodically download an updated list

rVidia
10-19-2006, 08:37 PM
I really enjoyed this read, nice work, great effort
Thanks for your kind words, FM :) and thanks, Pete, for the additional info.
- if I uninstalled spybot, would my host file lose the list
No, you would not lose the list. When you load Spybot entries to your HOSTS file, they are saved to your HOSTS file, not to Spybot; Spybot adds its HOSTS list to your HOSTS file.
- could I just copy the contents of the host file from someone who has spybot installed
You can copy the contents of any HOSTS file by opening the HOSTS file (Start > Run > %systemroot%\system32\drivers\etc\hosts) and then copying its contents. And to use the copied HOSTS file, simply paste it over your HOSTS file.
- is there a site where I keep periodically download an updated list
I would recommend the MVPS HOSTS file, as it's very comprehensive. The contents of the MVPS HOSTS file are available here (http://www.mvps.org/winhelp2002/hosts.txt); I would suggest going to that URL every month or so to check for updates, then simply copy the contents of the above URL and paste it over your HOSTS file.

fleamailman
10-19-2006, 08:52 PM
sorry, another question
runcommand: inetcpl.cpl @0,2
settings
this block's a sites cookies
is there a case where this is ever needed as an option, seems pointless

PeteF
10-20-2006, 12:38 AM
I would recommend the MVPS HOSTS file, as it's very comprehensive. The contents of the MVPS HOSTS file are available here (http://www.mvps.org/winhelp2002/hosts.txt); I would suggest going to that URL every month or so to check for updates, then simply copy the contents of the above URL and paste it over your HOSTS file.

Wow! The MVPS HOSTS list has over 12,000 entries
compared to Spybot's 2,000+ entries.

I wonder if having such a large Hosts file slows down the web browser
since each URL you visit has to be looked up in the Hosts file first.

---pete---

rVidia
10-20-2006, 07:08 AM
Wow! The MVPS HOSTS list has over 12,000 entries
compared to Spybot's 2,000+ entries.

I wonder if having such a large Hosts file slows down the web browser
since each URL you visit has to be looked up in the Hosts file first.
A HOSTS file over 135 KB may, in fact, slow down the machine (only W2000/XP are affected). To resolve this, you can set the DNS Client service to manual, although I personally have never experienced any "decrease" in performance.

runcommand: inetcpl.cpl @0,2
settings
this block's a sites cookies
is there a case where this is ever needed as an option
The above seems to be an unecessary step. "You can use a HOSTS file to block ads, banners, 3rd party Cookies, 3rd party page counters, web bugs, and even most hijackers. This is accomplished by blocking the connection(s) that supplies these little gems" (through your HOSTS file).

Terry Hanushek
10-20-2006, 09:11 AM
Pete

Wow! The MVPS HOSTS list has over 12,000 entries
compared to Spybot's 2,000+ entries.

I wonder if having such a large Hosts file slows down the web browser
since each URL you visit has to be looked up in the Hosts file first.
Interesting observation. After re-reading this thread last night, I copied the MVPS Hosts file to my home machine (WinXP Home using dial-up access). I visited a couple of sites after that and there did seem to be a longer delay than usual in opening them. I'll do some experimenting tonight and report back.

Terry

Guest110
10-20-2006, 09:15 AM
I have noticed a slow down as well after my host files editing..
My question wasnt answered
about does the host file do the same job as spywareblaster..please

rVidia
10-20-2006, 05:09 PM
My question wasnt answered
about does the host file do the same job as spywareblaster..please
Sorry, BM, I must have overlooked your question. :frown: Here is what SpywareBlaster does:
# Prevents the installation of ActiveX-based spyware, adware, browser hijackers, dialers, and other potentially unwanted software.
# Blocks spyware/tracking cookies in Internet Explorer and Mozilla/Firefox.
# Restricts the actions of potentially unwanted sites in Internet Explorer.
I'll hit on a few main points that may help answer your question:

1) If a website is blocked in your HOSTS file (127.0.0.1 domain), you will not be able to access that website; the connection is blocked.

2) SpywareBlaster adds websites to the IE Restricted Zone (applies to Internet Explorer only).

The difference between the two is that,

a) SpywareBlaster "secures" websites in the IE Restricted Zone, based on the settings of your Restricted Zone. For example, it might block ActiveX, etc., but the site is still accessible.

b) Blocked websites in your HOSTS file cannot be accessed at all.

Also,

- SpywareBlaster blocks certain ActiveX controls, regardless of what website you're on. It does so by setting a killbit (the method of disabling a certain CLSID) for the CLSIDs (class IDs, or the number that identifies a certain ActiveX control) of known bad ActiveX controls.

- Your HOSTS file blocks/prevents access to whole websites.

I hope I was able to answer your question :thumb:

Ray

Guest110
10-20-2006, 06:41 PM
It certainly does.. thank you so much:thumb:

Terry Hanushek
10-26-2006, 12:48 PM
Wow! The MVPS HOSTS list has over 12,000 entries
compared to Spybot's 2,000+ entries.

I wonder if having such a large Hosts file slows down the web browser
since each URL you visit has to be looked up in the Hosts file first.
Interesting observation. After re-reading this thread last night, I copied the MVPS Hosts file to my home machine (WinXP Home using dial-up access). I visited a couple of sites after that and there did seem to be a longer delay than usual in opening them. I'll do some experimenting tonight and report back.
After three days of constant delays as I went to different sites, I finally gave up on the MVPS Hosts file and restored my original file. I was experiencing five to ten second delays opening pages, far longer than my limited patience could handle. :)

Terry

Guest110
10-26-2006, 01:21 PM
i have been experiencing that as well Terry and hanging.. how do i go about restoring my previously empty hosts file please

Terry Hanushek
10-26-2006, 05:32 PM
BM

i have been experiencing that as well Terry and hanging.. how do i go about restoring my previously empty hosts file please
Since I never had anything in my Hosts file before this experiment I just removed everything in it to go back to where I started.

1) Open HOSTS with Notepad

2) Highlight all entries except first one for Localhost. (Hold the shift key down and use Page Down to get to the bottom of the file.

3) Hit Delete

4) Save

If you have problems or want an alternate approach, Ray has the initial Hosts file in his original post. Use copy / paste to move it to your Hosts file.

HTH

Terry

rVidia
10-26-2006, 06:06 PM
After three days of constant delays as I went to different sites...
I'm curious, Terry: did you set the DNS Client service to Manual in the Services Editor and then reboot before performing these tests? I would be interested in a comparison between the amount of delay with DNS Client set to Automatic vs. set to Manual.

Terry Hanushek
10-26-2006, 06:52 PM
Ray

All I did was copy the MVPS Hosts file to my Hosts file. I did not alter the DNS Client service. :redface: I may get an opportunity next week to rerun my test with the DNS Client service change.

Terry

rVidia
10-28-2006, 06:36 PM
Terry and others:

I decided to run some tests of my own, so I'd like to share my results. I performed these tests using Sysinternals' Filemon (http://www.sysinternals.com/Utilities/Filemon.html).



Test 1

MVPS HOSTS file. DNS Client service startup type comparison.

I first pasted the MVPS HOSTS file (10/15/06 update version) over my HOSTS file. I then set the DNS Client service to Manual and reboot. I also set DNS Client to Disable and reboot. I next opened the Firefox browser and went to www.google.com

With DNS Client set to Manual or Disable, HOSTS file entries were looked up before opening Google (see note)

I then set the DNS Client service to Automatic and reboot and next opened Firefox to go to Google.

With DNS Client set to Automatic, HOSTS file entries were NOT looked up before opening Google (see note)

Note: A more appropriate way to define Automatic, Manual, and Disable in regards to the DNS Client service would be:

Automatic - when the DNS client service is started
Manual and Disable - when the DNS Client service is NOT started

I determined the above results by going to Google and then referring to Filemon. When the DNS Client service was set to Manual and Disable, Filemon showed Firefox reading C:\WINDOWS\system32\drivers\etc\hosts (WinXP), the HOSTS file (see test 2). However, when DNS Client was set to Automatic, nothing pertaining to the HOSTS file was listed in Filemon.



Test 2

DNS Client service set to Manual/Disable. HOSTS file comparison.

With the MVPS HOSTS file in use, I went to Google and opened Filemon, which showed Firefox reading the HOSTS file (the DNS Client was set to Manual/Disable). I next took screenshots of those entries in Filemon.

MVPS HOSTS file - Filemon : See mvps1.jpg (http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/9872/mvps1dj0.jpg), mvps2.jpg (http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/1570/mvps2qo0.jpg), mvps3.jpg (http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/2199/mvps3sz3.jpg)

I then pasted the default HOSTS file (see my first post (http://www.kickenhardware.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3006)) over my HOSTS file. After going to Google, I opened Filemon and took a screenshot of appropriate entries in Filemon.

Default HOSTS file - Filemon : See default.jpg (http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/4353/defaultkg5.jpg)

I finally analyzed these Filemon entries:

With the MVPS HOSTS file - on average, Firefox took 1 to 2 seconds reading the HOSTS file before opening Google.

With default HOSTS file - Firefox took a fraction of a second reading the HOSTS file before opening Google.

In conclusion, with the DNS Client service set to Manual/Disable, the MVPS HOSTS file caused about a two second delay in comparison to the default HOSTS file / DNS Client set to Automatic.



I hope these results were of some interest. Results might differ, so you may want to download Filemon and run some tests of your own ;)

Ray

PeteF
10-29-2006, 01:13 AM
I first pasted the MVPS HOSTS file (10/15/06 update version) over my HOSTS file.

Everyone,
You can get the MVPS HOSTS list here.
Use copy & paste to insert it to your HOSTS file.
http://www.mvps.org/winhelp2002/hosts.txt


Ray, could you please post a few details about your computer
hardware and Internet connection that might have an effect
on the speed of your test results. Thanks.

Everyone,
Just my opinion here. I'm thinking that 2 seconds is too long of
a delay to deal with when using the MVPS HOSTS list which has
over 12,000 entries. So perhaps Spybot's HOSTS file list which
only contains 2,000 entries would be a good compromise. I am
assuming that Spybot has taken the delay issue into
consideration and only lists the worse IP addresses.

I'm using the Spybot HOSTS file list on a P4 1.8 GHZ PC and
768 DSL connection. I have not noticed any appreciable delay.

---pete---

rVidia
10-29-2006, 08:56 AM
Pete, here are the details on my test machine:

Intel Celeron 2.8 GHz
FastAccess DSL Xtreme (384 Kbps)

I agree with you that Spybot's HOSTS list would be a good alternative.

Ray

mylanta
10-29-2006, 09:18 AM
Ad Muncher...simple, doesn't slow anything down, and doesn't miss anything. Installs in less than 15 seconds and does everything you guys have been writing about for days. Costs $25. Can be used on any number of pc's.
Upgrades are free for life...LIFE CAN BE SO SIMPLE if you let it!
http://www.admuncher.com/

PeteF
10-29-2006, 09:27 AM
Ad Muncher...simple, doesn't slow anything down, and doesn't miss anything. Installs in less than 15 seconds and does everything you guys have been writing about for days. Costs $25. Can be used on any number of pc's.
Upgrades are free for life...LIFE CAN BE SO SIMPLE if you let it!
http://www.admuncher.com/

Rich, below is a list of what Ad Muncher does.
Ad Muncher's approach is different from the HOSTS FILE approach
because the HOSTS file blocks the entire IP address or access to
the bad websites.

AdMuncher features:

* Blocks adverts in all browsers.

* Blocks unwanted popups in all browsers.

* Blocks adverts in programs like ICQ, Morpheus, Kazaa, Grokster, Opera, PalTalk, iMesh, Bearshare, LimeWire, etc.

* Speeds up page loading, thanks to the missing adverts and popups.

* Blocks many annoying site behaviors.

* Works immediately out of the box, thanks to the most extensive advertising filter list available.

* Filters quickly and reliably, thanks to seven years of constant development and feedback from users.

-end-

Right Pete but it does one more thing...it allows me to not waste time everytime I want to block something, it does the research and as a result I have time for other things. The very thought of editing the master hosts file is a reason to reformat and put Linux on or buy Apple.
Who has this time? I never see anything else I am interested in blocking, and that is worth $25 for life whioch depending on how long I live could be less than pennies a day!