How to get Data from Laptop PC when WinXP won't Startup?

[PeteF]

Everyone,
Here's an interesting one one for you. It's more of fun thing or
a challenge to see the various aproaches differnet people would
take. I found a unique new way to do it and I'll post it after a
few people make their suggestions. :) Have fun!

Here's the situation:

* Compaq Laptop PC running WinXP Pro

* WinxP will not startup, not even into safe mode.

* Customer has critical data that needs to be taken off HD
before attempting to troubleshoot further or reinstall WinXP.

* You are the techchnician and you don't have have any means
to remove the HD from the laptop to connect it to another PC
to retrieve the data.

What do you do?

---pete---

[Seth]

If XP was truly unbootable even after attempting boot floppies, then load knoppix and burn away.

Or, boot to an alternate storage device that has an OS to access the lappy drive.

[compusimple]

is the laptop totally dead? or does it start to boot and stop?

Elliott

[mylanta]

Yeah but you took away the best route Pete, take the hard drive out and use an ide to usb adapter to read it on a desktop is the easiest.

[Dan18960]

Pete,

ANY (COMPUTER) technician that can't take a notebook hard drive out and put it in an external enclosure is just a USER!

Your concept would be like telling someone who has a RUNNING car, a driver's license, and the ability to drive to make a trip to a supermarket 100 miles away BUT they can't use the means available to them.

I just had a notebook that was crammed with malware and trojans that made working with it a nightmare - 1 hour later it was cleaned, programs safe, and data secured.

But that is just my .02 cents. (and at my rates - that would be more like a DOLLAR)

[dbarrow]

Is it dead or just a Windows no boot and what error?
Will it boot from cd?

If it is a simple reg farkle like HAL not found, I would boot it from XP cd into repair console and copy the backup reg files from repair folder. That's a 5 min fix.

If it will boot an Acronis cd, I would use Workstation version that will allow backup of folders/files and image off whatever is considered critical.

If it's a hardware DOA problem, then taking out the drive is the only way.
If it's a hd down the drain, SOL!

[Tortanick]

All the good ideas have been said allredy :(

[PeteF]

If XP was truly unbootable even after attempting boot floppies, then load knoppix and burn away.

Or, boot to an alternate storage device that has an OS to access the lappy drive.

Seth, you are the winner! :first:

All the other people's comments were unacceptable in this scenario.
I specifically limited the resources such that removing the HD was
not an option and it did indeed frustrate many. To solve this, you
have to think outside the box.

A few weeks ago, I would not have been able to solve this but
since I've been experimenting with Linux, a whole new way of
thinking has come to mind.

Here's my solution to getting the data off the laptop PC
that would not startup to WinXP.....

1.) Boot the laptop PC using Puppy Linux.

2.) Connect an Ext HD (or large Flash Drive) to the USB port.

3.) In Puppy, click the Drives Icon, mount the Laptop HD and
click Rox to open a window showing the folders on the HD you
need to backup.

4.) Mount the Ext HD, click Rox to open a window showing
the destination folder where you will copy the data to.

5.) Drag the files or folders between the Rox windows
to transfer the data to the Ext HD.

That's it!
No need to open the laptop PC at all. :)
Puppy Linux does it all with so little effort.

It mounts and reads Windows HDs, Ext HDs, Linux HDs,
Flash drives, etc.. Just insert the Puppy Linux CD and
within 3 minutes you will have an OS that recognizes
all your drives and OSs. I could even see the Acronis
*.tib file in the SecureZone partition using Puppy Linux.
Very cool!

With Puppy, any ordinary "user" can do it. :D

I just got done cleaning some stuborn viruses
that even NOD32 could not delete. Insert the Puppy CD
and 3 minutes later the offending files are deleted.

Puppy Linux is a great addition to any
technician's tool box. Pass it on!

---pete---

[RAK]

Second the motion on that, Pete. I did exactly what Seth described a few years ago with Knoppix. But you've taken it to another level with Puppy. And with an external drive you don't have to burn away like a madman, like I had to. And it's in the realm of poor "Users":wink:

[Tortanick]

All prase the linux guys and their amazing ability to run entire OSs from a CD.

[PeteF]

All prase the linux guys and their amazing ability to run entire OSs from a CD.

Praise the members here in the Linux Forum here at KH forums!
Although I personally can't make a complete switch to Linux,
with the help of you guys, I sure discovered some useful things
to do with Linux and Linux related applications.

* Freespire Linux CD - Good for certain people who like MS Windows
but don't like all virus & spyware issues. People who are not too
dependant upon being MS Windows compatible. People who like
FREE stuff.

* Mepis Linux CD - Good for all the Freespire reasons above and
when Freespire install won't handle the computer's hardware.

* Gparted - A great open source partition manager that handles
all kinds of OS formats, FAT, FAT32, NTFS, ext2, ext3, and on
and on.

* Puppy Linux CD - Good for so many things.
It's small and mighty! Starts up quickly and works with most
hardware I've tested it with so far.

Linux is great. MS Windows is great.
They both have their own pros & cons.

---pete---

[kelly]

I would have suggested Knoppix because that's the only linux CD I have. I've booted a machine only once with it. I'm not comfortable using it yet.

So ... as an alternative, I would have booted using an Acronis True Image disk and backup to the HD to an external. Once that was finihsed, I would then mount the image on another machine to retrieve data. Not the most elegant, but it would work.
- tony

[mylanta]

All prase the linux guys and their amazing ability to run entire OSs from a CD.

yeah especially when you figure our newest OS coming out, won't even fit on a cd!

[PeteF]

So ... as an alternative, I would have booted using an Acronis True Image disk and backup to the HD to an external. Once that was finihsed, I would then mount the image on another machine to retrieve data. Not the most elegant, but it would work.
- tony

Yeah Tony, thats thinking in a similar direction.
The beauty of Puppy is you can select just the folders or files
with important data and get them quickly to an ext HD. This
could be a life saver if the source HD was about to fail.

---pete---

[dbarrow]

Yeah but... is the object to recover data and files or restore the machine to operating condition?
For a simple blown HAL problem, I would have it back up in a couple minutes using Repair Console with no need to copy anything off to another drive or machine.

If totally hopeless, I would next go to the Acronis and image it, retrieve files later by mounting the image on another machine.

[Seth]

Yeah but... is the object to recover data and files or restore the machine to operating condition?

The scenario Pete posted was just a hypothetical situation to see what we would come up with to recover data.

For a simple blown HAL problem, I would have it back up in a couple minutes using Repair Console with no need to copy anything off to another drive or machine.
Maybe I missed something, but I didn't see anything about a missing/corrupt hal. But even if there were, a simple bootcfg /rebuild would correct hal without the need for a repair install.


If totally hopeless, I would next go to the Acronis and image it, retrieve files later by mounting the image on another machine.

Doug, why would you back up the whole drive instead of just the stuff the customer wants?

[dbarrow]

"why would you back up the whole drive instead of just the stuff the customer wants?"

Because the minute you give it back, they will certainly remember 100 files they absolutely had to have and forgot to tell you about.
Leave the whole image on their machine. They can buy and install Acronis, mount it and sort through it themselves.

Repair Install?
No, not a repair install...
One of the most frequent causes of a "no boot" XP is a farkled reg hive from an incomplete shutdown where the file, usually SYSTEM which is the HAL settings, didn't finish the shutdown write.
The quickest fix is booting from install CD to Repair Console, copy files from \Repair folder to System32\config and it will be back up in a jiffy on reboot.

I have not gotten around to trying out Acronis Secure Zone which does basically the same thing, replacing the blown reg files from backup. Meaning to get around to that.

"Computer rage" is an all too common user problem where people punch the power button for a reboot when it gets stuck. If one of the reg hives is open at the time, it gets farkled and can't load on reboot = BSOD or no load.

A game that freezes up and won't let you do a shutdown is a prime example. The only way out is a power off reboot.
That's what lead me to the original discovery of that method in the first place and I've had to do it more than once.

Of course, the tell tale scuff marks and dents where they pounded or kicked the machine could be a clue to a now fubar HD from impact.
I have one of those users...
Of course, son denied giving it a good swift kick when I asked him how the vid card got jarred out of the slot...

[Seth]

Repair Install?
No, not a repair install...


Ah yes, sorry Doug I misread that.

One of the most frequent causes of a "no boot" XP is a farkled reg hive from an incomplete shutdown where the file, usually SYSTEM which is the HAL settings, didn't finish the shutdown write.
The quickest fix is booting from install CD to Repair Console, copy files from \Repair folder to System32\config and it will be back up in a jiffy on reboot.

Interesting, I'll have to look into that. As noted, I've always used bootcfg /rebuild to successfully repair the hal problem.

[dbarrow]

This was mentioned previously in another post here somewhere. It is one of the most common causes of an XP "no boot" crash.
One of the last things XP does when you click START\Shutdown or Restart is "Saving Your Settings"
This is exactly what it is doing. These are primarily reg keys but also files in your user profile.
Anything that CHANGED while using the machine during current session, ie: sound card settings, vid settings, files in your user settings that have been updated/changed.
That is how XP remembers the last settings used.
"Saving Your Settings" is a brief timer allowing the saves.

Improper shutdown, incomplete shutdown, hang shutdown, anything preventing this final disk write can farkle one of the 4 key reg files although the most common one is System where the hardware info, ie: sound settings, live.

Power failure or hitting the reset button, if the timing just happens to be when one of the files is open or being written to, will do the same ... farkle the file.
There are a certain number of open or "in use" protected files XP is always updating on its own. Random bad luck and things like having to reboot to get out of a frozen game or program just may hit during this vulnerable period. Anything that interrupts a write to one of the reg files.

In fact, this has proven to be a major problem in newer/faster machines. The mobo,ram, CPU and chipset are so quick they complete the shutdown sequence before the drive can finish writing the information. When the power gets dropped while the drive is still writing, blown file results.
There is an MSKB article on this and a key modification to extend the timer to prevent this. Allows a few seconds more time for the writes to complete. ( a must on any machine that exhibits this behavior)

Usually, on a failed startup, you get the menu choice where you can choose "Last Known Good".
This is a backup restore from the system restore files that replaces the select registry hives (and how you can go back prior to an install or driver change).

The problem is, XP needs to reach a certain point in loading to get to that menu. If the System (HAL) file is farkled, it can't load that far because it can't access the correct hardware settings and you get "System file corrupt or missing".
The only option to get past that is by replacing the file.

XP, in infinite redundancy, keeps copies of the critical reg files in the Windows\Repair folder. These are updated on some automated schedule I have never been able to figure out, every so many days or every so many reboots.
Point being, there is a backup set of the registry prior to the problem.

If you boot from the XP install CD and choose the first Repair option, it opens the REPAIR CONSOLE.
While Repair Console has very limited functions, one thing it will do is COPY as a DOS command line.
CD (drive)\Windows\Repair
DIR you will see the SAM, SECURITY,software,system files
These are the backup reg hives.
COPY *.* \Windows\System32\Config
Overwrite? Yes
You have now replaced the blown files with the backup.
Exit and reboot and you are good to go.

Bootcfg repair is for situations where XP can't find \Windows root file because of some drive configuration change. It rebuilds the boot.ini by detecting the correct drive\partition and writing a new boot.ini.
fixboot and fix MBR are Repair Console commands.
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/291980/en-us
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/307654/en-us

[Seth]

Hey Doug,

Maybe you could move our discussion to a new thread as it's gotten off topic.

Anyway, the first thing I do for any sort of missing/corrupt config files, is run a chkdsk. That alone often replaces the corrupt files.

As you may have noted, most "Missing or Corrupt Hal.dll" is not that at all. This can be confirmed by expanding a good copy of it and confirming that it does indeed exist and is not missing or corrupt. It seems that the hal dll is only a symptom of the boot files being corrupt and not the cause. This can also be confirmed on many forums with users who have the missing hal, yet the problem persists after installing a good copy of it.

It may be a while before I run into the issue again, but when I do, I'll try your suggestion instead of the bootcfg /rebuild and let you know how it went.

Thanks.

[dbarrow]

chkdsk does not replace corrupted files, it only marks bad blocks and sectors, and where possible, salvages lost strings and segments sometimes making the file usable again providing no critical code is permenantly lost.

There is a difference between Missing or corrupt HAL.dll and Missing or corrupt System file which is the reg hive containing hardware settings created by HAL.dll.

Failure to access HAL.dll is another problem altogether and I can't quite recall all the cause for that one.
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/330184/en-us
This issue may occur if the Boot.ini file is missing, damaged, or contains incorrect entries.
At the command prompt, type bootcfg /rebuild,

Again, this one relates to a bad boot.ini being unable to locate the correct Windows root folder.

The trick is determining exactly which problem is preventing the boot and applying the correct fix.

Complicated ain't it!
That's where Acronis Secure Zone and Snap Restore or GoBack can come to the rescue for the 'average' user.

[Seth]

chkdsk does not replace corrupted files, it only marks bad blocks and sectors, and where possible, salvages lost strings and segments sometimes making the file usable again providing no critical code is permenantly lost.


Yes, "Replace" was a wrong choice of words on my part. Regardless, the point is, whenever any type of file corruption is evident, the very first step is to run error checking. I doubt that any tech would disagree with that.

Also, what the heck is up with using the "f" parameter on a chkdsk? Some Microsoft articles list it as a valid parameter, yet other Microsoft articles don't list it all when showing the valid parameters for chkdsk.

I don't think I've ever gotten chkdsk /f to run (invalid parameter), and always had to use the "r" parameter. Any idea?

[dbarrow]

Chkdsk in Read-Only Mode Does Not Detect Corruption on NTFS Volume
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/283340/en-us

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/315265/en-us
To repair errors without scanning the volume for bad sectors, at the command prompt, type chkdsk volume:/f,
To repair errors, locate bad sectors, and recover readable information, at the command prompt, type chkdsk volume:/r

The CHKDSK utility incorrectly identifies and deletes in-use security descriptors
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/831374/en-us
When you run the chkdsk command in fix mode, and you use the /F switch or the /R switch with this command, access control lists (ACLs) on some files may revert to their default values. This problem may occur if the volume contains more than 4,194,303 files. For example, this problem occurs in the following Chkdsk output:
CAUSE
This problem occurs because the Chkdsk utility may not find references to all the security IDs if the master file table is larger than 4 gigabytes (GB) or if there are more than 4,194,303 files on the volume. Therefore, the undiscovered security descriptors are reset.

*and all that stuff... I just check off both boxes in Error checking and let it run on reboot.
Did do it once or twice from Repair Console and CMD line using both switches.

[mylanta]

Getting back to image file that Doug started with, depending on the pc, it can take less time to run an image file of the entire drive or os, then look around for the files you want to save, then also easily read by another computer besides. I always ask the client if everything they saved is in the My Documents folder and then after I have tossed the dead hard drive they remember one program that installed files to the program in program Files. Or what of address book and email store, which many people move.
Looking for that is always fun and then there is my favorite that I always forget which is "did you get "my favorites"...easy to do if you have an image file on a portable hard drive.
I am curious about the new Acronis Universal restore as well which claims to put an XP Image File onto a new systemand make the corrections for new hardware...this could really be a time saver so while you all play with the 523 versions of Linux which I am envious of your ability to withstand "punishment" I think I will continue removing hard drives and "strapping" them to my existing system for cleaning and saving and this week I discovered a new wrinkle.
You all have heard of the "freezer trick" where you take a bad hard drive and bury it in the freezer for a few hours in a ziploc bag and then slave it to another system and retrieve the files. I have noticed that everytime I take a bad drive and use the usb to ide converter lazily to plug into a usb port, I never can read it if the drive was incapable of booting, and even if the drive shows healthy, it is with Raw or no files on it. I had a friend freeze a drive and forget about it for 2 weeks, and this was a drive that was clanking and banging in system before ultimate croak. He discovered it and slaved it to a new system I built and read it perfectly so I decided from here on on a croaked drive, no more attemots to read it at all, just straight into the freezer for a minimum 5 hours. It worked for a client with a really dead Sony yesterday. I really think you make no attempt to read it at all, just freeze it first off. oh and Short Circuit City had told her the drive was hopeless after having it in shop for a week (they probably never even looked at it) and she is convinced I am a magician now.!

[Seth]

Did do it once or twice from Repair Console and CMD line using both switches.


I can get "F" to work from a command prompt within Windows. However, from the Recovery Console, trying to use the F parameter results in "Invalid Parameter".

Now I could just use the R parameter (which I have been doing), but it takes much longer than F because R is locating and recovery bad sectors. So, F would be ideal (if it worked) for a quick error check and fix.

[PeteF]

I am curious about the new Acronis Universal restore as well which claims to put an XP Image File onto a new systemand make the corrections for new hardware...this could really be a time saver so while you all play with the 523 versions of Linux which I am envious of your ability to withstand "punishment" I think I will continue removing hard drives and "strapping" them to my existing system for cleaning and saving and this week I discovered a new wrinkle.

Ah but you see, your method is similar to using Puppy Linux.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but both methods utilize Linux as the
basic OS to access the drives. The main difference is that you
are backing up the entire HD as an image and I'm selecting the
specific folders I need to backup as regular folders. Two different
tools for two different jobs, but at the core, it's Linux. I'm using
version 1 and you are using version 524. ;)

Next time you have a HD that is questionable whether it will make
it through an entire drive imaging session and the customer has
some real critical data in a few folders to be backed up, think
about Puppy Linux and your ext USD drive. Don' t use a sledge
hammer when all that's required is a ball peen hammer. :)

---pete---

[Seth]

Next time you have a HD that is questionable whether it will make
it through an entire drive imaging session and the customer has
some real critical data in a few folders to be backed up, think
about Puppy Linux and your ext USD drive. Don' t use a sledge
hammer when all that's required is a ball peen hammer. :)

---pete---

:clap2:

I sure the heck wouldn't back up the whole drive when I have the customer telling me exactly what they want saved.

[mylanta]

:clap2:

I sure the heck wouldn't back up the whole drive when I have the customer telling me exactly what they want saved.


Seth,
The only problem with that thought is that they always hit me later with something they forgot to tell me...I have learned and always backup the whole My Documents folder but as I sais earlier there are always some files on c divre as well, I wasn't told about.

[Seth]

Seth,
The only problem with that thought is that they always hit me later with something they forgot to tell me...I have learned and always backup the whole My Documents folder but as I sais earlier there are always some files on c divre as well, I wasn't told about.

That's a good point Rich, and one I learned a long time ago.

For example, a customer will often tell me that all their pictures are in the My Pictures folder. Well, that's not usually the case. Slaving the hd and running a specific search for pictures and photos will often show that their personal pictures are in numerous folders. Ditto for docs and music.