Linux Pros and Cons

[jcampi]

John, Tortanick, et al: I moved the following posts from the Vista Nightmare thread because the lively and interesting discussion of Linux will have more visibility in the Apple / Linux forum. Terry


Please! The Linux Koolaid drinkers will never admit ANY negative with their OS. It will continue to be a OS used by a fringe group. Why is it that Linux users never mention the negatives about the OS?? Issues with drivers, recognizing hardware, etc. I think Linux users take many things for granted and think their OS is acceptable for the masses. Nothing is further from the truth. It's almost not worth discussing because I find most Linux users to be so passionate that they can't objectively discuss or critique Linux. I have no problem saying Windows isn't perfect. However, it's still the best all around choice available. There are also some Linux users that just enjoy using an OS that is free, considered esoteric by some and unique. Finally, I don't think many Windows or Linux users are going to change their minds debating the pros and cons about each OS. This is similar to a debate about whether Ford or Chevy are better.

[Tortanick]

their OS. It will continue to be a OS used by a fringe group. Linux users

Whats with all the 2nd and 3rd person? You're A linux user too, even the mac users are also linux users, nearly everyone is!

[jcampi]

Hey, you're right. I like the form of Linux Acronis True Image uses for the resuce disc. This is part of restoring my True Image backup. Beyond that, I don't want much to do with Linux. I'm happy it works for you. After all, it has a niche and a place to fill in the computing world.

[mylanta]

John,
I think what is meant here is the servers are Linux or Unix servers for all our isp's.

[kern]

Please! The Linux Koolaid drinkers will never admit ANY negative with their OS. It will continue to be a OS used by a fringe group. Why is it that Linux users never mention the negatives about the OS?? Issues with drivers, recognizing hardware, etc. I think Linux users take many things for granted and think their OS is acceptable for the masses. Nothing is further from the truth. It's almost not worth discussing because I find most Linux users to be so passionate that they can't objectively discuss or critique Linux. I have no problem saying Windows isn't perfect. However, it's still the best all around choice available. There are also some Linux users that just enjoy using an OS that is free, considered esoteric by some and unique. Finally, I don't think many Windows or Linux users are going to change their minds debating the pros and cons about each OS. This is similar to a debate about whether Ford or Chevy are better.

The biggest hurdle Linux has to overcome, in order to be accepted by the masses, is widely available in-depth tech support, as we have with Windows. Until that happens, as John mentions, Linux will continue to be a "fringe" OS.

[jflan]

IMO, one of the reasons Vista sucks is that The "Ultimate" flavor is rumored to have a pricetag of $369US.
I will never pay that much for an OS, period.

I live in the Pacific Northwest and alot of livelihoods depend on the success of Microsoft up here (and other places too)
I want MS to succeed, but I don't want to feel like I'm being gouged for an OS.
I depend on XP for much of my computing, but I do enjoy seeing the progress that Linux is making.

My hope is that this competition will give us better products and fair prices from Redmond.

In support of equal time, Linux sucks because:

Printer support is weak
Scanner support is weak
There is no Linux equal to PhotoShop
Downloading / Installing apps is weird for Windows refugees.

[jcampi]

Rich, I understand that Linux is used for many server applications. I don't think that is being debated at part of this discussion. I believe the discussion involves Linux as an OS that the average person can use.

[Tortanick]

jflan :
Printer support is week but improving fast. And it works brilliantly if you actually look for a supported printer.
Scanner support is weak, no idea how fast its improving.
Gimp and Krita are photoshop equivilents (and £0), but I wouldn't say their equal. photoshop can be made to work on Linux under wine (also £0) and I think cross over office supports it (not £0)
Planes are "weird" for anyone used to taking a boat, with sails, and taking weeks to get anywhere, as disadvantages go thats a pritty bad one :)

Kern: we both know the real tech support is in forums. linux has lots of those.

Jcampi: you made my point brillaintly, Linux can be used for anything; old hardware, embedded devices, supercomputers, clusters, new hardware, rescue CDs, bootable application CDs, Desktops, Servers, and more.

Windows is the real neich OS it can only be installed in two areas: Desktops and servers. As a result of this there are more linux users than windows users. (BTW I was actually thinking of google when I posted that)

In my view the real things holding Linux back are:
1) you have to install it yourself, there is no way to make this easy enough to get over the psychological fear so many people have of installing their own OS, or any other advanced computer thing.

2) Its not been marketed as a desktop OS

3) Time, its only recently (possibly 06) been ready for the Desktop, a change won't happen instantly.

[jcampi]

I give up. The saying is true. Youth is wasted on the young.
Like I said, there is nothing either one of us is going to say that will convince the other. In some years you may learn to understand that better.
This issue like almost all topics in life is not simply a black/white issue.
Long live Vista and Microsoft!

[Tortanick]

Aww, but then who am I going to have these debates with? they're fun

[kern]

Kern: we both know the real tech support is in forums. linux has lots of those.

In my view the real things holding Linux back are:
1) you have to install it yourself, there is no way to make this easy enough to get over the psychological fear so many people have of installing their own OS, or any other advanced computer thing.

2) Its not been marketed as a desktop OS

3) Time, its only recently (possibly 06) been ready for the Desktop, a change won't happen instantly.

my point is that until hardware/software manuf's/vendors provide the tech support, good or bad, Linux will remain "fringe".

[PeteF]

my point is that until hardware/software manuf's/vendors provide the tech support, good or bad, Linux will remain "fringe".

kern, I agree 100%.
As a matter of fact, commercial distros of Linux like TAFUSION MEPIS
are attempting to market their pay versions by offering excellent
tech support as well as a wide range of drivers. They have websites
help forums and knowledge bases to help users.

I checked it out, but it seems they have more work to do to get
everything running more smoothly. I also thought their prices were
a bit too high to draw in the masses. Seems to me they are trying
to make too money right off the bat. A better plan might be to
set the prices at 40% to 50% of what MS Windows sells for to
get more people to switch.

---pete---

[casey]

Don't any of you guys remember OS2 which at the time was light years ahead of Linux and was suppose to be the next OS because it didn't use DOS. I used that for a short period of time and every time I asked a question about something I was called names and accused of just degrading the OS. I soon gave up because Windows with Dos was better.Even if it did have problems. Where is OS2 today? I wonder if it still has the ATM machine market sewed up..

I have tried 7 or eight Linux OS programs over the years and each time I was told convincingly that I could get all the drivers and applications I wanted. The last one it took me two days with the help of a very knowledgable
Linux user to get the DVD to work and it was really basic and not worth the effort. I always get the urge when I read of how great Linux is now until I remember my past experiences..

[jcampi]

Casey, thanks for the real world experience you provide. I also knew friends that thought OS2 was the cat's meow when IBM was touting it. The experience you list about Linux is the same stuff I hear from friends and some IT computer geeks. I think people get tempted to try something different and almost free. Then, they experience the issues with drivers, hardware installation difficulties and the like. XP has been very good for me and most average users. I look forward to Vista and am confident MS will work out the issues.

[mylanta]

Well I have been a frequent player in the Linux games and I have a shelf full of worthless Linux programs where most of the hardware didn't work but I do have to say it is getting better...Puppy is working with everything now and I am downloading Suse 10.2 which I believe will have a load of software and also will work with all hardware. Will I be able to use either of these for what I do in Windows no, not today, and not next week.
Gimp is a great program, but equal to Photoshop, no, no it isn't even close.
For now it's a toy, and as for the internet a fast toy, but it is making progress.

[jflan]

Mylanta, let us know how SUSE 10.2 goes.
I was pleasantly suprised the way SUSE 10.0 handled my wireless, Firefox was already loaded and I was on the internet in no time.
SUSE 10.1 reportedly lost some of its built-in wireless capability due to copyright issues. The missing drivers had to be manually D/L'ed .

For folks without broadband, you can get a hard copy of SUSE 10.2 at the grocery store or newsstand this month.
Not sure if that's a plus or minus for the prestige factor : )

http://www.linux-magazine.com/issue/75

[Tortanick]

I have tried 7 or eight Linux OS programs over the years and each time I was told convincingly that I could get all the drivers and applications I wanted.

I don't like the fanatics either, I know there are quite a few driver issues around.

The last one it took me two days with the help of a very knowledgable
Linux user to get the DVD to work and it was really basic and not worth the effort. I always get the urge when I read of how great Linux is now until I remember my past experiences..

What distro and version of Linux was that? I got DVD playback with menu's and ripping via retranscoading, (audioCD included) in 10 seconds. I think it may be region free but I can't check. either thats massive improvement recently or its a diffrence in distro.

[rVidia]

I personally prefer BSD over Linux (I often use FreeBSD). "The differences between BSD and Linux all derive from basic philosophical differences. Once you understand those, everything else falls into place pretty neatly." (See this (http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/rants/bsd4linux/bsd4linux1.php) article; I agree with many of the statements made.)

[Tortanick]

I've read that too, I can't really comment on it since I never got round to trying BSD, and I don't think it really works to compair FreeBSD to Linux rather than distros.

On the other hand Linux and BSD are both great so whatever you prefure.

[casey]

What distro and version of Linux was that? I got DVD playback with menu's and ripping via retranscoading, (audioCD included) in 10 seconds. I think it may be region free but I can't check. either thats massive improvement recently or its a diffrence in distro.
__________________



Tortanick, I had to look back to see just what I was running. I guess the mind is the first to go, but here
is one of the many messages and one of the better ones:

Topic: SUSE Linux.. (11 of 22), Read 19 times
Conf: TECH TALK
From: Larry Kline lkline60@comcast.net
Date: Monday, March 20, 2006 11:47 AM
John,
Thanks for the help. To catch everyone up I decided to remove the 64 bit SUSE Linux and install the 32 bit again. Everything seemed to go smoothly and I installed all the updates and installation sources that was recommended. I then followed directions installing all the things needed. Like Java, Xine flash,mplayer etc. When I was finished I installed the package for playing DVD's and since this only needed the one file it worked okay. I didn't get done with all of this until late last night so I cannot tell how it is running. I did before I shut it off insert a video DVD and it played so I am hopeful it's okay and I can now explore and learn how it works.
Thanks to Klaatu for the help and wish me luck.


That was before I finally gave up and removed Linux...

[Tortanick]

That recently? well I'm suprised. it should have been easy, it was for me.

[casey]

That recently? well I'm suprised. it should have been easy, it was for me.



Were you installing the 32 bit or the 64 bit version. If I remember correctly the 32 bit was a lot easier then the 64 bit and of course I started with the 64 bit...

[casey]

Tortanick,

I might be confused as to which version I ran first as I read more of the messages I see I was jumping back and forth from 32 to 64 bit versions, Here is part of a message from the guy that was very helpful getting me up and running. I believe he knew what he was doing but just to show what Linux has to fix before it will become more then a niche. Could you imagine someone fairly new to computers following these directions::

Directions:
I think Totem is a Gnome thing. (I'm not trying to start a battle!) It is a sort of "default" player and I don't like the default player in KDE either. There is one alternative that come to mind: mplayer will, I think, work in your set up. Search for it in yast, under software-->software management and a screen with a search box will appear. Type in mplayer and you will get a listing that includes mplayer (for Movie player) and a mozilla plugin for mplayer. If they're not already installed, get them both. Always look for a package that ends in .rpm Otherwise, you will have to compile the package yourself, an unnecessary pain. Don't get the .src.rpm packages, they are source code and have to be compiled. Always use yast to install these things. Its the easy and safe way.

At the very least, be sure you have totem-xine installed

[Tortanick]

Well I couldn't imagine anyone new following those instructions, but hopefully he'd word it diffrently if he knew he was talking to someone new to computers.

That said I disagree with him on his choice of media player, VLC is the best and in my experiance incredibly easy to install. Works on windows too :)

and I'm useing the 32 bit version of debian etch, the fact its debian will make a lot more diffrence than the fact its 32 bit.

[Tortanick]

At least the last 5 years have been "the year of the linux desktop", its become a running joke among linux users.

The real awnser is whenever dell & co decide