Back Up Storage Media of Choice

[BGBG]

What is considered the safest and most reliable storage media in order of desirability?
An external hard disk drive USB or Firewire, DVD/RW, CD/RW, ZIP disk?
I have heard of and had CD and DVD BECOME corrupted on the spot, like I would open it and see contents, then open it again and it was inaccessible. I have found discs later on the be unusable and were not tested in beginning so i dont know if they were not good to start with or became bad later on.
Simplest thing for large files like My Documents would be to copy to an external hard drive. CDRW and DVDRW would be good but Im not sure I trust them. I am considering copying daily things to ZIP disk for its faster than floppy or PC doesnt have floppy, then copying to an external hard disk drive later. Are the hard disk drives the best way to go for ultimate storage even if other media is used for in between steps? It was shocking to think I had things of DVDR then find them already corrupted or becoming inaccessible after opening them.

[dbarrow]

Price (cost per byte) and efficiency wise... external drives are a real bargain these days. Also consider the additional space where you can afford to have multiple backup versions and incrementals. One backup on DVDR isn't reliable if it fails to restore. I think that is where most people fail in creating their backup strategy as Murphy's Law dictates that the one and only time you will need to use it will be the time you find a corrupted image!
Multiple images, Multiple date ranges, Multiple storage

[kelly]

Ditto - also if you really want to keep old backups, get an external hard drive case and install a regular internal drive in it. When the drive gets full, pull it from teh case, put it on a shelf, and install a new internal.

[Dan18960]

BG,

It all depends on requirement(s).

ALL of my servers have tape backups. Most reliable, longer retention of magnetic encoding (I have restored from tapes that were 6, 7, and 8 years old).

Home computer users - most reliable is external hard drive(s).

Portability - cd R disks. Limited retention value. Can not retain glazing in extreme cold or heat. Direct sunlight will blister plastic coating and destroy data. "Sharpie" ink can dissolve media base. Good for maintaining utilities that need to be updated minimum quarterly. Not recommended for long term data retention.

DVD media is similar to CD media.

[Smokey]

Whatever you do, plan for an emergency as well. Pick up a small waterproof/fireproof safe, even if it opens with a key. You don't need anything spectacular, just something to protect the media/drive inside. Its a small investment but definitely worth it!

[mylanta]

most reliable is external hard drive(s).
No way Jose...most reliable is second internal hard drive.

[Smokey]

No way Jose...most reliable is second internal hard drive.

That isn't a backup then, its just another drive with constant use. A backup can be REMOVED from the machine so it can be stored elsewhere in case of an emergency. What happens if your power supply fries and takes with it most hardware in your machine including hard drives. All your precious backups are now gone. And rather than constantly wasting DVD's to duplicate the backups all the time from that second drive, just use an external and it can be removed. I don't see how keeping a second internal drive can act as a good backup in case of a failure.

[jcampi]

I love my external USB hard drive. 300GB for less than $100 on ebay. It kicks butt! Super fast and reliable. I will still use it when my pc moves on and is replaced. I keep all of my music and photo files on the external drive. It's the best $100 I've spent in a long time.

[mylanta]

That isn't a backup then, its just another drive with constant use. A backup can be REMOVED from the machine so it can be stored elsewhere in case of an emergency. What happens if your power supply fries and takes with it most hardware in your machine including hard drives. All your precious backups are now gone. And rather than constantly wasting DVD's to duplicate the backups all the time from that second drive, just use an external and it can be removed. I don't see how keeping a second internal drive can act as a good backup in case of a failure.

Adam,
That is ridiculous of course it is backup and the likelihood of a psu killing more than one hard drive, more likely an external drive will turn on and corrupt and lose its image file...that I have had happen more often. If you build your pc correctly and use a quality psu, they don't blow up as I have never had one do that. And again even when they do, they do not necessarily take hard drive with them. Personally I find external drives very volatile and have lost entire drives on a few occasions,for no real reason that makes any sense , oh and they are much much slower too. Now that doesn't mean I don't occasionally use a dvd or an external I remove from pc, but for those I use portables I can store in a fireproof safe.

[Seth]

Whatever you do, plan for an emergency as well. Pick up a small waterproof/fireproof safe, even if it opens with a key. You don't need anything spectacular, just something to protect the media/drive inside. Its a small investment but definitely worth it!

Smokey?

Who the hell is this guy?

[mylanta]

Smokey?

Who the hell is this guy?

My nemesis!

[Smokey]

Adam,
That is ridiculous of course it is backup and the likelihood of a psu killing more than one hard drive, more likely an external drive will turn on and corrupt and lose its image file...that I have had happen more often. If you build your pc correctly and use a quality psu, they don't blow up as I have never had one do that. And again even when they do, they do not necessarily take hard drive with them. Personally I find external drives very volatile and have lost entire drives on a few occasions,for no real reason that makes any sense , oh and they are much much slower too. Now that doesn't mean I don't occasionally use a dvd or an external I remove from pc, but for those I use portables I can store in a fireproof safe.

You are right, the likelihood is very small that it'd happen, but it does. Power surges can do it or even surges via POTS or cable lines have been known to take equipment with them. Yes you are right. Power supplies and other protection equipment has evolved and its rare that it will happen, however if it does happen then I sure as heck don't want my backups connected to any machine that could potentially fry. Keep it disconnected and the possibility that it will fry is removed. Put it in a firesafe and then its even more protected. And an external drive being more sensitive? Sure if you play football with it. But to remove it from your machine, put it in a safe and leave it sit there, how is that more sensitive then a hard drive RUNNING AT ALL TIMES in your machine?

[PeteF]

You are right, the likelihood is very small that it'd happen, but it does. Power surges can do it or even surges via POTS or cable lines have been known to take equipment with them.

Yes, I agree because I do know someone who had 2 drives taken out
by a PSU that went bad. PSU was hit by a power surge due to a
close lightning strike and took out both drives.

This issue of 2 drives being taken out by a bad PSU is extremely difficult
to evaluate from a service tech's experience alone since most PCs only
contain one Hard Drive.

Only time I'd recommed using an internal non-removable Hard Drive for
backup is if it's a secondary backup system just for convenience, or
in a case where the losing the data is no big deal to the user.

Again, as I usually say, there is no single best solution for most
computer issues. Each situation requires careful thought and
consideration of many factors to determine the best solution.

For some people, using an internal Hard Drive would be fine.
For others, it could spell disaster. You really have to consider
what your individual needs are.

What level of backup protection do you desire?
(listed below from lowest to highest protection levels)

* Protection from data files becoming corrupted

* Protection from a corrupted Operating System

* Protection from a corrupted Operating System
due to virus and/or spyware

* Protection from catastophic hard drive failure

* Protection from catastophic PC failure due to
Lightening strike or AC power line surges.

* Protection from theft of the entire PC.

* Protection from your entire building burning down

* Protection from your entire building burning down
and your primary backup storage media failing.

Note: To achieve the highest level of protection you must
have at least 2 backups stored offsite and far enough away
where fire at your main site can never effect the offsite
location.

---pete---

[mylanta]

You are right, the likelihood is very small that it'd happen, but it does. Power surges can do it or even surges via POTS or cable lines have been known to take equipment with them. Yes you are right. Power supplies and other protection equipment has evolved and its rare that it will happen, however if it does happen then I sure as heck don't want my backups connected to any machine that could potentially fry. Keep it disconnected and the possibility that it will fry is removed. Put it in a firesafe and then its even more protected. And an external drive being more sensitive? Sure if you play football with it. But to remove it from your machine, put it in a safe and leave it sit there, how is that more sensitive then a hard drive RUNNING AT ALL TIMES in your machine?

Right and I do the firesafe bit once in a while as well, but for everyday "normal", give me an internal any day of the week.

[mylanta]

Yes, I agree because I do know someone who had 2 drives taken out
by a PSU that went bad. PSU was hit by a power surge due to a
close lightning strike and took out both drives.

This issue of 2 drives being taken out by a bad PSU is extremely difficult
to evaluate from a service tech's experience alone since most PCs only
contain one Hard Drive.

Only time I'd recommed using an internal non-removable Hard Drive for
backup is if it's a secondary backup system just for convenience, or
in a case where the losing the data is no big deal to the user.

Again, as I usually say, there is no single best solution for most
computer issues. Each situation requires careful thought and
consideration of many factors to determine the best solution.

For some people, using an internal Hard Drive would be fine.
For others, it could spell disaster. You really have to consider
what your individual needs are.

What level of backup protection do you desire?
(listed below from lowest to highest protection levels)

* Protection from data files becoming corrupted

* Protection from a corrupted Operating System

* Protection from a corrupted Operating System
due to virus and/or spyware

* Protection from catastophic hard drive failure

* Protection from catastophic PC failure due to
Lightening strike or AC power line surges.

* Protection from theft of the entire PC.

* Protection from your entire building burning down

* Protection from your entire building burning down
and your primary backup storage media failing.

Note: To achieve the highest level of protection you must
have at least 2 backups stored offsite and far enough away
where fire at your main site can never effect the offsite
location.

---pete---

And ya know, I could walk out my door this afternoon carrying the portable hard drive and a bus could run me over too! And that is about the same likelihood of anything you say happening to the extra internal hard drive.
For the past 9 years, myself and my 2 ex-partners, ran an extra internal backup hard drive in 3 systems in my case and 2 in another and 1 in the last case. And while we have all blown hard drives and even psu's, not once has anyone ever lost the internal hard drive backup and had to use the external off site backups we kept.
In that same time I have had 4 external hard drives lose image files totally for reasons I never determined, and backup data about 6 times (not including the time I formatted 1 by accident installing XP). And the others have had their externals wiped clean on several occasions also.
Personally I think usb ports are completely unreliable and way more unstable as a backup source than almost any other possibility. I might add that the drives I lost weren't usb but firewire as I never would trust anything important to usb, ever anyway.
Currently I use a Buffalo gigabit external drive for all my files and all 4 pc's access them and work on them on that drive. Every hour any pc on will backup from the Buffalo drive into the 2nd drive of that pc, all files that are in real time use so actually I have the potential of 4 internal secondary hard drives containing all current data and image files so I need some unstable external crapware to corrupt and tell me nothing can read it or it needs formatting like I need an extra ___ ____! If I had a dollar for every post on *** and Tech Guy having to do with "my computer cannot read flash drive" or "turned on my usb external drive and it says all files are raw", I would not have to work.

[kelly]

I work with a small pharma company. Backups done nightly on tape and are kept off site in a safe deposit box. Their data IS IMPORTANT and off-site backup is necessary.

For a home user, I prefer the speed of an external hard drive. I like to use externals for the same reason Adam mentioned - if there's a problem with your computer, I don't want the backup destroyed. Remove the backup physically and electronically from the source is a sound plan.

[mommalina]

Rich wrote:
And ya know, I could walk out my door this afternoon carrying the portable
hard drive and a bus could run me over too! And that is about the same
likelihood of anything you say happening to the extra internal hard drive.

The only "back-up" you'd need then is one by the bus......... so we could bury you
in style! Good one, Rich! .. :)


:rofl:


Lina

[kern]

There is a compromise for both IDE/ATA and SATA drives- an internal harddrive 'rack' with removable drive tray, such as from Icy Dock ---> www.icydock.com/internalsata.html

The 'enclosure' component installs in one (or multi) of the pc's 5.25 inch drive bays. The drive installs in a removable tray.
Insert the tray in the rack, power up (with the turn of a key) to perform a backup, then shut down when done, and remove the tray for safe keeping of the drive.
I've been using them for years- Best of both worlds IMHO.

[PeteF]

And ya know, I could walk out my door this afternoon carrying the portable hard drive and a bus could run me over too!
Hey Rich, that's why I say you need at least 2 backups. :D

For the past 9 years, myself and my 2 ex-partners, ran an extra internal backup hard drive in 3 systems in my case and 2 in another and 1 in the last case. And while we have all blown hard drives and even psu's, not once has anyone ever lost the internal hard drive backup and had to use the external off site backups we kept.

Rich, as I stated, I would only recommend using the internal HD as a
secondary backup or for convenience. I'm referring non-removable HDs.
I don't think it's good practice to base your strategy on such a small
sampling of 3 people. The experience of just 3 people over 9 years is
not adequate to acurately predict what can possibly happen to a larger
pool of hundreds of users (I.E; your customers) or the members of this
forum. In this thread alone, we have posts that indicate something
contrary to the 3 samples you provided.

Rich, I happen to agree with you that USB external drives are less than
reliable. I only found the Maxtor One Touch USB external drive to be
reliable, but I've only tested about 4 different brands so far. Again I don't
like to judge things by my experience alone (small sampling), but when I
consistantly have negative experiences it's a good indicator that most
USB external drives are not so reliable.

Bottom line, I think *removable* internal hard drives are the best choice
and also provide good reliability. You can transfer the data over an
ethernet connection or locally on the same PC and it won't matter much
except for speed. As long as you backup to an internal drive you will have
good reliability. Then depending upon which level of security you desire,
get the removable hard drive to a safe location. Idealy you need 2 (or more)
removeable drives so that one can be in use and one (or more) stored in a
safe location.

---pete---

[mylanta]

I don't think it's good practice to base your strategy on such a small
sampling of 3 people. The experience of just 3 people over 9 years is
not adequate to acurately predict what can possibly happen to a larger
pool of hundreds of users (I.E; your customers) or the members of this
forum. In this thread alone, we have posts that indicate something
contrary to the 3 samples you provided.

While I can agree with your logic, the fact that for 9 years the things you all want to base your backup plan on never occurred in 29 computers, I find highly relevant. I stopped making decisions years ago on isolated occurrences, or things that might happen but never have, and choose to base my policies on what I see and can touch. In spite of my illustration of 3 users who all had multiple computers over those years, I can also add that in my client base, I have also never seen a second hard drive go down from any of the possibilities mentioned. yet if I add my client base, I can add hundreds of usb devices that have lost images over the years and drives that simply stopped working. No I'm sorry, usb drives are the poorest form of backup for reliability, and I only wish Pc hardware makers had gone like Apple in the direction of firewire for external ports as once again pc makers are off in the wrong direction.

[kern]

While I can agree with your logic, the fact that for 9 years the things you all want to base your backup plan on never occurred in 29 computers, I find highly relevant....No I'm sorry, usb drives are the poorest form of backup for reliability, and I only wish Pc hardware makers had gone like Apple in the direction of firewire for external ports as once again pc makers are off in the wrong direction.

I have to agree with firewire being more reliable than usb. I've had numerous incidents with 'usb drive' data transfers farkling drives, and havent' had any issues with 'firewire drive'. Thats the main reason I used the removable internal 'rack' if possible.

[PeteF]

I have also never seen a second hard drive go down from any of the possibilities mentioned.

Ok Rich, let's just agree that we disagree on this one issue. :)

For anyone else who's interested just Google... "both hard drives failed"
You will see quickly see many examples on the first search page alone.
Case closed.;)

---pete---

[mylanta]

OK, but I love how Adam started all this and then "snuck" out unscathed!

[kern]

OK, but I love how Adam started all this and then "snuck" out unscathed!

LOL...

[dbarrow]

The concept of backups appears to be very slowly catching on as evidenced by both the price and sales volume of extrenal backup drives.

But.. let's face it... the average user just has to get burned once or twice until face the fact that backups are an essential part of any computer.

USB devices are the most popular and common.
Many used to be dual with Firewire and USB but Firewire is losing ground and many are now USB only.
In most cases, USB is simple to install and setup for "Joe Average" .

They come with software ... which may or may not be right for the job. I recall, when adding a USB external to daughter's machine when it was stand alone, that the Veritas software included was worth a total of an hour's worth of frustration before I dumped it for an already working Acronis solution.

USB may be slow, but when doing unattended automated backups, do you really notice or care? My external chugs along with little or no attention except an occasional look to make sure backups are being run on schedule.

I see many more "secure protected storage" solutions coming to market with items like fire proof safes and some type of network capability, including wireless, to make them more portable or able to locate in more secure locations apart from the machine.

Internal backup is the easiest and cheapest to accomplish.
Drives are cheap enough. They are fast and efficient enough to satisfy the needs of most users. The average user is far less worried about HD failure than screwing up their software and needing a way to undo whatever they did.

Business applications and data are a whole different story with justifiable need for on site and off site storage. But, the cost of reliable backup for small business is something they often can't justify in their minds. There are far too many small businesses and offices that rely on their computers to keep them operating where they employ no backup solution of any kind ... until they day they can't open their doors because the computer died!

Backup solutions are one of those things where you can't over do it...
Multiple backups in multiple locations on multiple media!
Paranoia isn't running an overblown and complicated backup solution ... it's that sinking feeling when the critical backup you need didn't restore!

[Smokey]

OK, but I love how Adam started all this and then "snuck" out unscathed!

When did I sneak out? Isn't it my job to rile you up? It always was, even on the old boards. I still don't agree with you on this topic, but whats new?

[kern]

When did I sneak out? Isn't it my job to rile you up? It always was, even on the old boards. I still don't agree with you on this topic, but whats new?

ah yes the infamous Zucker/Mentzel wars......AMD vs Intel among others...lol

[Smokey]

Yes but if you remember, who actually won those wars? Who said, "I"LL NEVER USE THIS AMD CRAP AGAIN" and now uses AMD primarily? Couldn't have been me as I have always been on the AMD side. Hmm, I wonder who else is left....

[mylanta]

Sneak!!!